Thanks for your advance explanation, This is really somthing i should dig, as for me, i always refer my contract when its really needed to protect/control my planning part, but if there is advantage why not, nothing to loose.
i have to refer FIDIC from Shahzad, Another Thing what related/use FIDIC and CONTRACT. Is it like Goverment Law and Contract.
Hi Shahzad,
If u wont mind could u sent me a copy FIDIC for my reference. miharbiz@yahoo.com
I am pleased to see that things are a bit clearer for you now!! ;-)
However, I think that it should be pointed out that a Variation to the Works ( for example as in accordance with Clause 51 of FIDIC) or a Change to the Works, relates only to the physical work itself, and not to a change in the Contract documentation.
A Variation Order or a Change Order, therefore, should only be used where there is a variation or change to the quantity, quality or sequence or timing of the execution of the Works, but where there is to be an alteration to the Contract, this is frequently (if not usually!) done by means of a Contract Amendment.
Although Stuart is correct in that COs abd VOs are normally one and the same thing in your case it would appear that:
CO is something that is covered within the contract scope of work but may be varied due to a design change, under/over measurement of a bill item or similar.
VO is something that as the name suggets, varies the contract, ie sometging that is beyond the scope of a CO.
This may seem a bit odd but there is a limit on what can be done under a CO (or equivalent)- normally they should just be used for relatively minor changes to the works or contract.
If a change is such that the scope of works is more than incidental to the original contract works it cant be ordered as a CO and if its very different then it cant be ordered by a VO either - a new contract for that works may be required.
eg If someone was building a house for me and I decided I wanted a swimming pool, then as the type or scope of work is not that of the original contract, I could not order it as a variation but would need a new contract.
Similarly if someone was building me 500 houses and I wanted 5 more, then that is a small change that could be covered by a variation.
If someone was building me 5 houses and I wanted 5 more then the change in quantity of work is too great and a new contract would be required.
Hope you get the drift.
As for the windows, under a remeasurable contract it would normally be possible to introduce a new item along the lines already mentioned in other posts.
If an item is not included in a BoQ, it should be added when the remeasurement is carried out, and – as I stated before – the cost thereof should either be based on existing BoQ Rates or on a new rate built up from first principles.
On the basis that a Contract which includes for a BoQ is based on British-English, (since a BoQ is a British concept), I think that generally the term ‘Variation Order’ is more likely to be used, though – as Raja has correctly pointed out – individual differences may well exist.
You clearly mentiond that VO and Change Order are same thing but the Contract stipulates which term being used. That’s right but you did not emphasize on missing item in BOQ in remeasured Contract.
Anyhow, the missing items may Claim under VO or change order in remeasured Contracts as your case
You have just exemplified the mistake of making generalities!! ;-)
GENERALLY, a Change Order and Variation Order are the same thing, the term “Change Order” being used in Contracts with an American-English background, and a “Variation Order” being where the Contract has its roots in British-English.! Generally, these terms refer to additional work which causes a variation or change (either positive or negative) to the Contractor’s workscope, and for which there is to be an adjustment to his contract price and schedule as a result of such variation or change.
HOWEVER, if your Contract clearly defines both these terms specifically (as yours appears to do), then in your case they are different matters.
It appears to me that in your Contract the provision of ‘Change Order’ is related to some form of engineering verification process that the Contractor must undertake, after which any such work is deemed to be part of his workscope. Is this so?
Are U very sure on change order and Variation Order is the same thing in your contract?...
Because in my contract,
Change order - means have to do additional work which is in the scope but being lefted behind or mistake of design which not included in. Then the work have to be done in the perior project time frame.
Variation Order -means have to do additionl work which is out of scope, can be done in time frame of project or after handover project.
im not very knowledgable about this... but curious.
If your Contract Works are fully remeasurable, then yes, you are probably entitled to a variation in regard to the additional works executed.
To do this in the remeasurement of your BoQ, you need to add the Bill Item for the 10 additional windows, and if possible, price these at a rate analogous to the rates used for other windows. If this is not possible, you need to build up a rate for the new windows from first principles. This arrangement should be provided for by your Contract Conditions and Method of Measurement.
If the 10 additional windows are in lieu of other windows contained in the Contractor’s workscope, then the other windows should be deducted from the overall remeasurement.
If the 10 windows are truly additional, then no further deduction is required.
Incidentally, a Change Order and a Variation Order are the same thing!!
I dont think u can claim on your window, Unless the design change from rev 0(no windows or 2windows) to rev 1 (10nos windows) u can claim under change order not VO.
Member for
22 years 3 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Hi Raja
Shortly I will forward you.
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Raja,
You can find out all about FIDIC at www.fidic.org
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
20 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Hi Stuart,
Thanks for your advance explanation, This is really somthing i should dig, as for me, i always refer my contract when its really needed to protect/control my planning part, but if there is advantage why not, nothing to loose.
i have to refer FIDIC from Shahzad, Another Thing what related/use FIDIC and CONTRACT. Is it like Goverment Law and Contract.
Hi Shahzad,
If u wont mind could u sent me a copy FIDIC for my reference. miharbiz@yahoo.com
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Raja,
I am pleased to see that things are a bit clearer for you now!! ;-)
However, I think that it should be pointed out that a Variation to the Works ( for example as in accordance with Clause 51 of FIDIC) or a Change to the Works, relates only to the physical work itself, and not to a change in the Contract documentation.
A Variation Order or a Change Order, therefore, should only be used where there is a variation or change to the quantity, quality or sequence or timing of the execution of the Works, but where there is to be an alteration to the Contract, this is frequently (if not usually!) done by means of a Contract Amendment.
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Hi,
Thanks Bill, Raja, Charleston, Stuart, Shazad and Andrew.
Razi
Member for
20 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Well guys,
thank you for the correction and good explanation, much clearer to me now.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Raja,
Although Stuart is correct in that COs abd VOs are normally one and the same thing in your case it would appear that:
CO is something that is covered within the contract scope of work but may be varied due to a design change, under/over measurement of a bill item or similar.
VO is something that as the name suggets, varies the contract, ie sometging that is beyond the scope of a CO.
This may seem a bit odd but there is a limit on what can be done under a CO (or equivalent)- normally they should just be used for relatively minor changes to the works or contract.
If a change is such that the scope of works is more than incidental to the original contract works it cant be ordered as a CO and if its very different then it cant be ordered by a VO either - a new contract for that works may be required.
eg If someone was building a house for me and I decided I wanted a swimming pool, then as the type or scope of work is not that of the original contract, I could not order it as a variation but would need a new contract.
Similarly if someone was building me 500 houses and I wanted 5 more, then that is a small change that could be covered by a variation.
If someone was building me 5 houses and I wanted 5 more then the change in quantity of work is too great and a new contract would be required.
Hope you get the drift.
As for the windows, under a remeasurable contract it would normally be possible to introduce a new item along the lines already mentioned in other posts.
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Hi Shahzad,
If an item is not included in a BoQ, it should be added when the remeasurement is carried out, and – as I stated before – the cost thereof should either be based on existing BoQ Rates or on a new rate built up from first principles.
On the basis that a Contract which includes for a BoQ is based on British-English, (since a BoQ is a British concept), I think that generally the term ‘Variation Order’ is more likely to be used, though – as Raja has correctly pointed out – individual differences may well exist.
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
22 years 3 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Hi Stuart
You clearly mentiond that VO and Change Order are same thing but the Contract stipulates which term being used. That’s right but you did not emphasize on missing item in BOQ in remeasured Contract.
Anyhow, the missing items may Claim under VO or change order in remeasured Contracts as your case
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Raja,
You have just exemplified the mistake of making generalities!! ;-)
GENERALLY, a Change Order and Variation Order are the same thing, the term “Change Order” being used in Contracts with an American-English background, and a “Variation Order” being where the Contract has its roots in British-English.! Generally, these terms refer to additional work which causes a variation or change (either positive or negative) to the Contractor’s workscope, and for which there is to be an adjustment to his contract price and schedule as a result of such variation or change.
HOWEVER, if your Contract clearly defines both these terms specifically (as yours appears to do), then in your case they are different matters.
It appears to me that in your Contract the provision of ‘Change Order’ is related to some form of engineering verification process that the Contractor must undertake, after which any such work is deemed to be part of his workscope. Is this so?
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
20 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Mr Stuart,
Are U very sure on change order and Variation Order is the same thing in your contract?...
Because in my contract,
Change order - means have to do additional work which is in the scope but being lefted behind or mistake of design which not included in. Then the work have to be done in the perior project time frame.
Variation Order -means have to do additionl work which is out of scope, can be done in time frame of project or after handover project.
im not very knowledgable about this... but curious.
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Razi,
If your Contract Works are fully remeasurable, then yes, you are probably entitled to a variation in regard to the additional works executed.
To do this in the remeasurement of your BoQ, you need to add the Bill Item for the 10 additional windows, and if possible, price these at a rate analogous to the rates used for other windows. If this is not possible, you need to build up a rate for the new windows from first principles. This arrangement should be provided for by your Contract Conditions and Method of Measurement.
If the 10 additional windows are in lieu of other windows contained in the Contractor’s workscope, then the other windows should be deducted from the overall remeasurement.
If the 10 windows are truly additional, then no further deduction is required.
Incidentally, a Change Order and a Variation Order are the same thing!!
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Hello Razi,
1.) Check if the 10 windows have similarities with other types of windows, maybe minor differences,
2.) Evaluate the unit cost if almost the same with unit cost for existing windows in the BOQ
3.) negotiate with the engineer to include the same windows to the windows with the almost the same unit cost.
In 1.) if the differences are big, then, come back to PP.
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
20 years 4 monthsRE: Item missing In B.O.Q In Remeasured Contract
Hi
I dont think u can claim on your window, Unless the design change from rev 0(no windows or 2windows) to rev 1 (10nos windows) u can claim under change order not VO.