(1) Explain your problem, don't simply post "This isn't working". What were you doing when you faced the problem? What have you tried to resolve - did you look for a solution using "Search" ? Has it happened just once or several times?
(2) It's also good to get feedback when a solution is found, return to the original post to explain how it was resolved so that more people can also use the results.
I guess I'm getting impatient in my old age. I'm used to the very intuitive way MSP allows you to insert tasks, and then insert subtasks by indenting. And being able to drag things around. From the P6 manual and the web, I cannot figure out how to display tasks in a custom order, and secondly, as subtasks. At least not directly. Am I to assume I must manually do this at the WBS level/will that work, or am I so far off base because P6 just looks at the whole task entering process differently than MSP? It seems extremely klunky in this regard. But maybe that's the price of accuracy and flexibility for grouping & sorting.
Thx.
Printer-friendly version
Send to friend
Geoffrey,
interoperability would be ideal to that end, but that's hoping for too much
That is impossible, I am asking for a bit more compatibility, not full compatibility, and a bit more is still possible. They transfer activity name, they transfer activity duration, they transfer a portion of links definition (not necessary all as here is where the irreconcilable differences start) and the like.
For example my software of choice Spider Project have hammocks similar to P6 level of effort but not necessarily equal, Spider do not have the WBS activity P6 and SureTrak have. I do not see why it cannot be implemented in Spider, what damage a WBS Activity Type would do? Of course adapted to the fact Spider have unlimited WBS dictionaries. I would even like the WBS activity to behave like MSP summary activities, not that I am going to abuse them as it can be done with use of lag or almost any other functionality.
I believe in competition, by looking for better ways to transfer data with the knowledge it is impossible to make it 100% the developers will embrace competition. Not a good thing for those on top who want all market for them. I believe better compatibility implementation will do good to the software as this is a functionality very important for many of us that embrace competition and are tolerant to free choice.
I consider P6 such a bad product by design that eventually it will collapse. It is a matter of time judging from the comments of 100% of the General Contractors for which I provide quantity take-off and scheduling services. They find it expensive, too difficult to deploy, unstable database unlike Btrieve used by P3, poor with regard to resource assignments that forces them to set it aside and schedule real world allocations at the jobsite with use of spreadsheets. They do not see an advantage on it over MSP they consider equally bad but less of a pain to implement, they all are moving to MSP. Because I am in no way moving to MSP I am always looking for a bit more compatibility, a bit more not 100%, 100% means using MSP.
More compatibility with P6 means we would be able to use P6 when required by others and use Spider Project to handle the complications of resource assignments at the jobsite. We frequently must transfer idle resources either part time of the work day or full time, but this means allocation of variable resource quantities, this is a day to day quest of the PM that gets frustrated with the inability of P6 to provide help other than a manual worksheet they call bucket planning, a static allocation that does not moves with the activities.
Best Regards,
Rafael
Rafael, I noticed that!
I'm keenly interested to see if these other products (MSP, Asta, Spider) can crack P6's stranglehold on the constrution market. I say that not knowing which is the best. I'm guessing they all have strengths & weaknesses, but it's always good to more than one competitor ("two makes a market"), not just the one that people are forced into by decree, regardless of its merits. Certainly, interoperability would be ideal to that end, but that's hoping for too much, I suppose, plus can restrict features ability. Someone needs to invent a data hub that is designed to recieve from each, process, then export to each (chasing that unicorn!). I'm willing to share patent profits from this brilliant thought.:)/I'm sure not too original!~
that's excellent! congrats to him/her. I'll send an offline message re lunch. interesting.
Geoffrey, my youngest finishes at Bates this month! :-)
I don't think I missed the info about the Mercedes. In fact, I figured out that, as an adjunct, I made something close to minimum wage on an hourly basis. Not surprisingly, I have decided to end my academic career and concentrate on the corporate and executive education markets!
Fraternally in project management,
Steve the Bajan
Geoffrey,
Be aware that in P6 links to summary bars do not work even when listed as predecessors/successors. I recall Primavera SureTrack had the Topic Activity [Summary Activity / WBS Activity] that could link one another and the links would work as in MSP. Maybe the activity transfers from MSP to P6 along with dummy links that only create confusion as they do not work.
As I said many are using MSP, the best selling scheduling software in the world, but few other software are implementing the functionality of MSP regarding summary links. I would like better compatibility with MSP with regard to summary bars as we cannot pretend MSP does not matter.
Best regards,
Rafael
HAHAHA I expect no less. Yes that sounds good. And besides project planning, since I have 2 in college (+1 graduating this month from Babson MBA - thank god he's on his own loan), I'd like to know why college is so damn expensive. My theory is that they give the professors extravagantly furnished office suites (per professor) and a double-Mercedez-autos lease as free bennies. You DID get the Mercedez deal, didn't you?
No, Geoffrey. I'm a big believer in sticky notes and flipchart paper -- that way I get the pleasure of computing total float, free float, drag and drag cost myself instead of giving that fun to a software package. Y'know, surveys have shown conclusively: project managers like to have fun!
Fraternally in project management,
Steve the Bajan
With that kind of workload, don't you have to schedule it in P6?
Either way would be great, Raphael.
Fraternally in project management,
Steve the Bajan
Geoffrey, so you're in Boston? Maybe we should get together for lunch some time. Having just completed turning in my grades for my MBA students at Suffolk, and with only a manuscript due next Feb on my calendar, I actually have lots of time for once...
Fraternally in project management,
Steve the Bajan
Steve,
Thank you, I had you in my mind but our stay at Boston was short and during workdays, I did not wanted to put you in a compromise with such short schedule. When you stop by San Juan when going to your beloved island of Barbados we can meet, of course when I return to Boston I will contact you on time via PP.
Best Regards,
Rafael
You're like an assinin in this forum! I expected nothing but P6 love in the P6 Forum.
Hi Geoffrey
This is what I like about Planning Planet.
A serious discussion about P6 inadequacies suddenly goes off piste with anecdotes on family life - great.
If you worked in Asta Powerproject then you can just save your programme as .xer and open it up in P6.
You still have to re set the calendars though.
I may have mentioned this before but my password to start P6 is p6iscrap.
Best regards
Mike Testro
DOH! I just noticed the little Command Bar at the right, which answers my question on how to easily re-order the WBS items. What an odd location for that thing. It doesn't look re-dockable, but I'm thrilled it's available. Whew, I was really wondering about this program...I'm sure I'll learn to love it...or at least develop a strong affection...:)
Rafael's livin' the good life. I'm stuck up here in the Artic Circle/Boston Sector (apparently with Steve). I thought winter would never end.
Funny (but sadly true?) that it might be easier to construct the activities layout in MSP then import? eh yeh yeh.
So, Raphael, you came through Boston and didn't get in touch?? Instead of hitting "Reply", I should have clicked "Flag as Offensive"!
Fraternally in project management,
Steve the Bajan
Geoffrey,
As far as I recall Primavera software in all its flavors have WBS Activity Type, different to Hammock or Level of Effort. Maybe it can be an option so that when you organize by codes the Summary bar equivalent, the WBS Activity will still be shown.
Possibly by using a single dummy activity code you can mimic the display you get in MSP.
If you import a MSP job into P6 it might give you some clues as how best to mimic MSP Outline.
Good Luck,
Rafael
Geoffrey,
The weather here is great, blue sky. Perfect for flying, perhaps too good as my son is to practice fly by instrument today, he must use special goggles as to not be able to look outside. In a couple of weeks he is to take the FAA exam for his certification for instrument rating.
Last time on our way to St. Thomas he missed the view, but I did not.
About honeymoons, I had a few but with the same woman I have been married for over 35 years. Any excuse is valid, last year we did go to Pennsylvania then by train to Connecticut and then to Boston, we had such a good time we cannot wait for an excuse, for next time we will be targeting other New England states and Canada on the fall. We love America.
Best Regards,
Rafael
HAHAHAHA I'M NOT TELLING!~ But Rafael, I believe that's aimed at YOU, Sir!:)
Hi Geoffrey
How many honeymoons have you had?
Best regards
Mike Testro
Nice tips/thanks!
btw, I will NOT take offense at your spelling of my name.:)
I def. relate to your perspective on the gulf between the software guys and the field guys. Each has their valid perspective/it's tough to get the understanding between them. Speaking out of school, because I just don't know Primavera well, it seems like MS is the leader in usability and Primavera in other areas (in fact, I'm a bit shocked at P6's klunckiness (some of the stuff it is missing is SO old), but I'm sure it's got other things all over MSP). Part of it I'm sure is tech, part marketing, part culture.
Hey, how's the weather in PR?!:). I've only been once on a honeymoon - I LOVED the entire experience.
Geoffrey,
In my neighborhood CPM practice is very poor, it is common CPM is just a contractual requirement outsourced to meet some contract requirement and the Contractor PM has no other option than to manage his job using spreadsheets as usually the specified software is stuck with resource assignment functionality that does not meets the complicated real world needs.
It is like some software developers do not care how a real PM manage their work and they are to teach them how to do it when in reality those software developers are full of BS. Very soon our PMs realize the CPM model they are supplied by foreigners to their job is worth nothing. Usually job logic is the easy part, even a rookie can figure it out, first you got to excavate before pouring the footings, not difficult for my mutt dog, it is mostly about efficient resource usage where the schedule fails.
About sorting and organizing you shall look at organizing by activity codes in P6, perhaps easier and better than the equivalent in MSP. Suggest organizing by activity codes and within codes by activity ID. Soon you will learn to use activity IDs to make it easy to keep sort order. Like initially keeping activity IDs apart by a specific increment, say 10, then when in need to move an activity during initial schedule setup you can use intermediate numbers.
Best Regards,
Rafael
Well. To get back to my first question, what I found the easiest is to add a column named "SO" for sort order. By the way, when I go in to the Group & Sort, I expected P6 to have renamed the choice to "SO" but it is still "user_text1." I was under the impression that Oracle was a cutting edge data base software company, but I may have been mistaken.:). But it doesn't bother me, I guess. In MSP, in order to avoid having my Activity ID's constantly changed while adding activities, I had to add my own ID column...
So my NEXT "sort" question relates to the WBS. I am really surprised that if I want to re-arrange their order I have to cut & paste manually in the specific reverse-order method. I'm hoping you can tell me I'm missing something and that P6 is not this troglodite...:)?
btw, I am using the Primavera Contractor Demo, in lieu of P6, because p6 was not user-friendly download. In this Demo version (a full operating copy), the Group & Sort does not sort the WBS Names - absolutely no effect...
Yes, Johannes. This is very interesting.
Thanks, Rafael.
I'm what you guys might consider a project planning pretender.:) My only experience is the typical half-*ssed effort for small to not-so-small construction projects over the years ($0 thru $20M). However, I may be trying to get involved in 5-50 million $ projects, in an MEP coordinating role, and I was thinking of adding scheduling to it. It appears that P6 is what most of these GC's use. My sense is that it is often the case that they use this sophisticated tool to assemble only a very basic schedule, with the most rudimentary information. For example, at least some of them don't use crew-sizes and so forth, even at the outset. In the current project I'm involved with, I know that not much consideration went in to daily production quantities by way of analyzing milestone feasibility (It's a $40M job and the schedule has 600 activities - not thousands). Resource-leveling? I guess that would be on the Subs' level, but I would be very surprised if many of them are using a scheduling program like MSP or P6 for that stuff. What-If Analysis? Haha. My past experience is that the most thoughtful effort occurs for the initial schedule, and maintaining it is something the PM's do after they've had their rear molars taken out, and only because either the boss requires something on paper for a weekly meeting, or it is a monthly requisition requirement. And it's not like there's the time luxury to work on the finer points of CPM networking. So, the level of sophistication that goes into these is puny compared to the expertise level you guys are on, which appears to be at the "science" level.:)
Let me know if I'm being too cynical here.
Hi Geoffrey
Whoeps!! A simple question and a simple answer. P6 seems to provoke interesting reactions. Trust that you can learn from them. I can.
Johannes
Geoffrey,
Perhaps for certain small project size MSP and P6 might do it but for large construction jobs the lack of good resource management functionality makes both poor choices.
In very large jobs you need good modeling of shifts as each contractor and subcontractor might work on their own particular shifts. It is not uncommon to have over 20 shifts on a single project. You also need to model different groups of meeting resources as well as non-meeting resources that must work a certain amount of time or volume of work on the same activity.
In addition resource loading by individual resources on jobs of thousands of activities is insane.
I believe easy and good reporting capabilities are lacking in P6 as I have observed many questions on how to make simple reports on P6. People even have issues with the S-Curves, one of the most elementary reports since old times.
P6 cannot even handle variable quantity and workload assignments by the software. To my understanding the farther it can go is to fixed partial workload. Without variable (not fixed) quantities and workloads you lose control of idle time, a waste of resources that can easily put your job in red. Keep in mind at bid time estimators do not take into account idle time, they usually estimate chunks of work assuming no or very little idle time.
How do you report and control idle time in your jobs?
How do you use this idle resources information to get better resource leveled jobs?
The idea on resource leveling is not merely creating a feasible schedule but creating good ones. A feasible schedule that results in too much idle resource time is not a good one.
If you use such software the PM will be forced to manually move idle resources and forget about what the schedule says. For small jobs he might do it manually but for thousands of activities it is impractical.
If you are to work hundreds of small projects, sharing crews and resources it might make some sense to use P6 but if large projects or even medium size construction jobs it does not makes any sense at all, too inefficient for such jobs that require more complex resource assigments. If you are to work many small independent jobs at the floor level of any industry MSP makes sense.
Best Regards,
Rafael
Mike Testro wrote: "It is still stoneage technology - way behind the latest developements in software such as Spider and Asta - and yes even MSP."
Hi, Mike. First, thanks for your invite this morning to link -- now we can send each other barbs about the upcoming Cricket Champions' Trophy in England in June!
I know you are very active with Asta, and in light of your remark above, I feel I must ask: if Asta wants to incorporate modern technology and metrics, why doesn't it include something as fundamental to CPM as critical path drag computation? Vladimir programmed Spider to do it four years ago. Another package is supposed to be coming out with a release that computes it later this year.
If a US Department of Defense publication like Defense AT&L Magazine (the A, T and L stand for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics) feels its important enough to print an article about it, and if a book on PM in the Oil & Gas Industry feels it's important enough to re-print that article, and if an upcoming book on emergency response edited by two people from the Air Force Institute of Technology solicits me to do a chapter on how to use critical path drag in emergency response planning to save lives, surely Asta should consider this?
Asta doesn't even have to pay to buy my 1999 book where I first explained how to compute drag -- just have someone from Asta contact me and I'll be happy to explain the concept to them and help them program the algorithm so it computes correctly. In fact, I'd be happy to help Asta incorporate all the new Total Project Control (TPC) metrics, including drag cost and true cost, value breakdown structure, cost of time, cost of leveling with unresolved bottlenecks (the CLUB you use to justify resources), and the planned and actual DIPP S-curves and progress metrics.
And then I'll be delighted to mention Asta (along with Spider and any other software that computes critical path drag) in my next book due out next year.
Fraternally in project management,
Steve the Bajan
Wow. Thanks for all the input, gentlemen. I had read that P6 was at least superior to MSP in accuracy, and my slight experience with MSP seemed to have yielded some odd results at times. And I thought MSP's approach to Activity IDs to be toyish.
I do appreciate P6's "forcing" some discipline on the process with through WBS channel, but also that, and I think it's stated by one of you, they should get that to execute while still accomodating manuevering tasks within the activity schedule.
I'm most surprised about the P6 database issues, as that would seem to be in Oracle's wheelhouse.
I'm just getting into scheduling a little more (not in the same universe of your expertise) and may have to use P6 due to its standardization in the construction industry for certain project sizes. And, I was hoping the Contract Management component would be a very good program as well.
I wonder how long Oracle can hold their lock on some of these markets.
Mike,
I would say P6 is most primitive at its basic Database Engine, a very inefficient choice for the task on hand.
Of course there are many other limitations such as:
It is superior to all others with regard to the amount of Bugs, here it is the unquestionable champion.
At home all Contractors I know are switching to MSP, not my choice but for them a better choice than P6.
For me it is not a big deal as I can import MSP jobs into my software at a single click of the mouse.
The following might interest you as a delay analyst. Beware of P6 traps.
http://traineeum.com/implementation-considerations-between-enterprise-sc...
Geoffrey,
I got the feeling your frustration is just starting, but eventually you might get used to be prisoner of the limitations.
There is a consensus on the "experts" as to the WBS method being superior to the Outline method available in MSP as well as it was on Primavera SureTrak but I do not see why software developers do not provide the user with an easy way to create Summary Activities by selecting the desired activities and a click of the mouse.
Best Regards,
Rafael
Hi Mike,
No i have not see a facility to give tasks different colors in P6. I use P6 for a number of years and to create schedules using WBS technique is working fine for our company. We operate an portfolio with different projects at multiple locations and therefore a propely designed EPS, OBS and WBS structure is a must. Our management insist on having a predictable picture of the workload per labor type, per project and work sites and a combination all, at any given moment. We are be able to get this information using P6.
I have no expieriance with ASTA and a little on Spider so i cannot comment on this.
Just one more thing, i read your posts with great interest and these are of great importants to the planning community and i have your Course on basic principles of Delay analysis. Very useful.
Best Regards
Johannes
Hi Johannes
And this is how the most popular planning software works?
It is still stoneage technology - way behind the latest developements in software such as Spider and Asta - and yes even MSP.
When P6 will allow a click and indent to create a summary then I will be impressed.
And while we are at it I have heard that you can put different colours on tasks in P6. Is it just a myth or can it really be done?
Best regards
Mike T.
Hi Geoffrey
Yes P6 is somewhat different. If you want to create subtasks, as you call it, i proceed as follows.
Go to the WBS tab at the leftt hand part of the screen and insert a new WBS item and name the WBS title. Then insert a new WBS item, name it, and indent this under the first WBS item. So now you have the indentation you would like to have. The next step is to display the WBS in the tabular section of the Gantt Chart. Go to the group and sort tab and select WBS. Then make sure that the checkbox "hide"is unchecked. So now the WBS items are displayed in the Gantt chart. The next think is to set the "sort" at the right part in the same tab and insert two sorting criteria. The first one it the "early start" criteria and the second is the "activity ID" . This sort on the activity numbers. So this results in a sorting on the early start and the lowest number comes first.
Now you are set to insert the activities. Go to the lowest WBS item and insert the activities you desire.
Good luck
Johannes
Email: PPadmin@planningplanet.com
Replies