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TILOS is time-location planning software

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Hello all,

We have had some repeated requests to setup a forum area specially for those avid TILOS fans. So here it is.

TILOS is time-location planning software (also known as time-chainage software) that helps planning engineers in construction and civil engineering industries plan and manage linear construction projects such as road, rail, bridge, pipeline, power cabling, canal and tunnelling projects.

TILOS visually displays project plans in terms of both time and distance so planners can clearly see, for example, the status of a road build project in terms of what needs to be done on each section of the road and by when.

TILOS is the only system that combines the features of a drawing program and a project management system (including scheduling, resource and cost management). TILOS can exchange data with other scheduling systems including Microsoft Project, Primavera/P3, Excel and Asta Powerproject.

TILOS is a windows application that is installed on each PC. It is available as standalone and network version. For the network version, a licence is installed on a server to enable concurrent licencing.

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Dave Crosby
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Actually this not strictly true. It is distributed in the UK by Asta Development, but it is actually from a German company.
You can find their web site here:
http://www.tilos.org/

Just to confuse you they used to call themselves Asta Development (Germany) but they have now changed their name to "Linear Project".

Kind regards,

Dave.
Mike Testro
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Hi Punit

Its from the same people who produce PowerProject:

Asta Developments - you can google Asta to get to their website.

Best regards

Mike Testro
PUNIT PATEL
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hello dave,
i am looking for TILOS Software , could u suggest from where can i get it
Dave Crosby
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Hi Mai,

In TILOS there is more than one way to import data from an Excel file. One way requires a add-on. If your data is coming from P6 I suggest you look at the Excel add-on.

Regards,

Dave.
Mia Ng
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Oh you guys are so helpful. Thanks alot.

Tu Huynh Van
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Hi Mai,

Another way, you can export P6 to excel file (xls), and then xls . . .to Tilos.

Cheers
Alexandre Faulx-B...
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Mai and Mike,
Ulos can import P3 files and export to P3 format
See http://www.astadev.com/software/tilos/overview.asp
Therefore you will be abel to exchange data between Tilos and PM6 via P3 files; you do not have to have P3 instaleld for that.
Alexandre
Mike Testro
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Hi Mai

Send your email to support@astadev.com and they will tell you by return.

You can import p3 to PowerProject and back again so maybe you can with Tilos.

Best regards

Mike Testro
Mia Ng
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Hi guys,

Thought I ping back this topic since it’s more than 1 year now. My company is looking for the possibility of using Tilos to produce time chainage programme. Could anybody tell me if it is possible to import a P6 programme (.xer file) into Tilos (or vice versa)? Many thanks
Ewan Lindsay
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Hi Philip
I have only just seen this forum so have only been brought up to speed on the discussion.
Something which has puzzled me is why you opted for Tilos and not Site Plan which would have been integral with the CCS estimating package.
I used their package four years ago and although fairly basic at that time still gave a presentable time chainage solution and is reasonably fast.
Knowing how quickly they develop I am sure by now it will be a very good package.
Regards

Ewan
Philip Jonker
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Hi Ewan,

The answer is very simple, and very complicated. the original programmme at the proposal stage was done in CCS, due to several factors it was decided to use Primavera. At the time Primavera anounced they were abolishing P3 in 2007, and that Primavera PM v5, was the new answer, a decision was made to use this. In the meantime a time distance tool had to be found that could work in tandem with PM v5, we looked at several (3) and after some tests decided on Tilos, which is doing good work, however, PM v5 is not the most stable program in the universe, and it it has a number of shortfalls, so Tilos is fine, but reporting is a major problem. As you know it is a multi national project, and everybody has their own languages, perceptions, etc. And with CCS being a favourite, amongst some of the individuals it features. It is an interesting conundrum, and we are searching for solutions.

If you are on skype or simular, let me know, and we could have an interesting chat.

Regards,

Philip
Philip Jonker
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Hi Raja,

Have lots to say, but time is few. Tilos is a good tool for finding problems withim the schedule, but it lacks speed, somewhere somebody has to produce a homogenous product, where everything is done by the click of a button, besides which I am short of resources, so if you are interested, contact me. It is interesting timeshere, and the experience will serve you greatly.

Regards,

Philip
Raja Izat Raja Ib...
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Hi Philip,
Where are you.... miss your sharp words. Any new function or news regard TILOS, since six month i got sample from you. Surely got the tune to find the pro and con of the software which you can share with us.

Regards
Philip Jonker
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Hi Stephen,

Do not feel lonely, with all this experience, I think I have to go and get a marketing degree, just to be able to sell the idea of planning in the correct perspective. People have all these weird perceptions about planning, such as it is the "black art of project management", which is strange in that all our crystal balls are flat LCD screens and do not remotely look anything like crystal. The other weird thing is that there is this sudden influx of so-called Project Managers, who qualified via various univercities/colleges, and seem to know it all, but cannot read a barchart, never mind understand the structure of programmes. Now we hit them with Tilos/time chainage, time distance, whatever you want to call it, and voila, after a bit of explanation, they grasp the concept, and become the masters of the universe. However, the barcharts are still mysterious documents which is beyond their grasp. The secret "black magic" knowledge good planners have is being able to read these mysterious documents. The unfortunate thing is that not all projects are open to linear diagrams, but somewhere out there is a solution. At least you got the grasp of the concept, in understanding that it can help you in terms of the motorway portion of your project. If you want some copies of the diagrams, my e-mail addres is philplan@iafrica.com . Let me know your address, and I will gladly send you some examples. Keep up the planning.

Regards

Philip
Stephen Magill
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Hi all,

Just spent a good hour reading this thread trying to get as much info on Tilos as possible. Gave up shortly after page 7 (when the discussion about the problems of scale and poor charlies sycophancy was in full swing.)
A number of folk tried to redirect us back towards the original point but it would appear with no real success. (maybe i gave up just at the wrong time but couldnt really afford much more time reading the thread, as entertaining as it was).

I am also a touch nervous to say anything here, in fear of being pigeonholed as a ’program jockey’ with no real planning skill and a heavy relyance on software to give me answers.

Many of the responders in here have more years planning experience than i have been alive (27) and i have nothing but respect for those ’old school’ planners who had no choice but to do things the hard way. The thought of trying to reschedule a programme with 500 odd tasks after a month delay in one area is actually more than my mind can comprehend. where would you start?

I would however like to add that although planning software does make things easier, it will never be able to replace the planner and the logical thinking he/she does. i think you always have to start with a pencil and ruler to get the basis of your programme down, the software merely makes checking and changing your logic much easier.

i have been employed as a dedicated planner for 4 years working mainly on Healthcare Buildings and having little or no clue about civil or pipework projects.

Recently i have been givin the oppourtunity to work on a large project with extensive motorway upgrading requirements as a 20% value of the job. I will myself be doing very little planning for the entire job, however the motorway contractor will no doubt be using Tilos or similar software. I am wondering about the presentation capabilities of Tilos and would be interested in seeing that A0 pdf you were talking about philip. It may well be that i will be working with the strategy planner and any ideas on how to usefully present a time-location plan to the client would be greatly appreciated. Ive applied to run the demo from asta and had a look at their examples on line but didnt find them that helpful.

As i said, i have no experience of time-location plans and any ideas / suggestions on presentation techniques or which software does it best would be a great help.

Thanking everyone in advance,
Stephen
Philip Jonker
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Hi clive,

Well put, if I had a choice, would change software tomorrow, unfortunately you get locked in by the costs involved and other factors such as the ease of converting data to other programs. this may not be the forum to discuss this, but you can maybe move this to another forum, such as the shortfalls of software. I am tied into Primavera because a decision ws made to go the route of PM v5. It took some time to work out how to link PMv5 to Tilos, without any assistance from Primavera. Asta had their input. The point I am getting to, is that Primavera, despite their their obvious domination of the marketplace as a result of P3 and the failure of OP Professional, have never had any input to this website. They have no commitment to planning and have their own ideas about what we should be doing in this respect1. In other words they have us in their trap and (I am trying to put this bluntly, but the rules of the site prevent me from frankly stating what my true opinion is) we need to walk away from this tender trap. I am speaking very frankly, avoiding the real words to pronounce what we need. Lets get to the facrs, PMv5, cannot even produce S-curves, print a calendar, and falls short by far of any planners expectations. The point I am making is that Asta, and Spider is so far ahead that PMv5 is living in terms of planning in the murkiness, in terms of Darwinism, in the great darkness, and if they had any brains within that organisation, would become an active partner.

regards

Philip
Charleston-Joseph...
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Philip / Clive,

I share your impression on me. Please understand that I have confidentiality agreement in my contract. So I cannot post something that will get back to me relating to "confidentiality clause in my work contract".

I hope you will understand.

I’ll try to work up something in pdf that will show what im talking about.

As per Clive, I really believe what you said about communicating the plans. It should be effective communication of plan activities.

Sometimes, I really wanted to shout on top of my voice or jump on top of project meetings to communicate what are the effective plan activities. This happened when site activities are not logical or daily activities were conducted as if project teams were to each his own agenda. It was so frustrating.

In fairness, i will do something to show what i did.


Regards,

Charlie
Clive Randall
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Charlie
Its great that the message gets across to the site team in simple to understand presntations
As I have maintained on this site for a long time, you can be the most accomplished user of P3 in the world but its not worth a jot if the guys on site either feel its too complex or too detailed. Site planning is all about watching the trends and doing something about them before they become a disater. Thats really true for civils and particuiarly viaduct construction.
If your not carefull a minor problem such a a lack of a stressing anchor can cause major delays to the project.

Philip seems a little unreasonable to have a go at Charlie because he dosent want to give out too many details about the Dubai LRT. I can understand that the client may get pretty fed up finding out the project so close to his heart is being banded around the internet with all its naughty bits displayed.
I note you havent told us specifically about the project you are working on but I guess its this

Gautrain Rapid Rail Link project in South Africa

Projects specialists at Pinsent Masons are supporting South African law firm Ledwaba Mazwai in advising the Gauteng Provincial Government on the US$1.65bn Gautrain Rapid Rail Link Project which reached financial close today.

The project is the largest railway under construction in the world. The Bombela consortium finalised terms of the concession agreement with the Gauteng Provincial Government for the 80k high-speed rail link that will connect Johannesburg’s central business district, its northern suburbs, Johannesburg International Airport and Pretoria. Construction on the project began on 28 September 2006.

The contract for the design-build portion of the scheme is valued at approximately US$3.3bn. The project involves financing, design-build, and operation and maintenance of the rail link.

The Bombela consortium consists of: Bombardier; French civil contractor Bouygues Travaux Publics; South African civil contractor Murray & Roberts; and Strategic Partners Group (SPG), which is a group of several South African Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment companies. Rand Merchant Bank and Standard Bank are providing the financing for the scheme. Soc Gen is advising the consortium.

Good to see the lawyers dont know what the project is worth either 1.65 or 3.3 but what the hell does it matter they have loads of money anyway

However I do agree with Philip, Charlie that sometimes you are a little too secretive

As to a Spider forum why not

Primavera is a piece of C**p its hard to use, I dont mean technically its all the bullshit about always having to press enter, its not flexible, you cant get really into the data base and its platform and links to other software are archaic. Add to that the price and the total lack of back up and the fact that when microsoft new office version whatever its called takes over all the old P3 copies wont run and at nearly 5k US a pop thats something a good company would be helping their punters with I agree with Philip.
As to ASTA or power project they have always come at the market from a different perspective way back in 1989 when they came out with the software they went round the contractors with it and said does this work for you guys. They have continued to do that which is why its the biggest selling software for planning in the UK.
However as most of our clients are too damm lazy to get off their butts and rewrite their programme specs we are stuck with Primavera. I personally think they should have called it Prima Donna.
As to what will happen soon I dont know, Power project has just released a new update that allows you to go from Primavera to power project, and when I next sign up a revamp of our Company software Im likely to go either for Power project and take my P3 files across or openplan
Philip Jonker
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Hi guys,

Charles what is your problem, we have in excess of 10km of viaducts to erect on a live project. Why all the sececy, thought we are here to share ideas, so explain why you are trying to hide your ideas. Besides this I have 15km of tunnels and 15000000cub m of eartworks. so what is the point here, of talkingg to each other if not sharing ideas.I think, that PP Admin should give Spider projects their own forum, as I believe that power projects also has a forum, if not I think they need one. I believe there is much better software out there than the crap, we are being forced to use. In my opinion, software are tools we have to use, but the choice lies with the users. so therefore if the contracts that we sign with supliers is debateable, as the nonsense they are providing as patches, and as fixes are notworking. I therefore believe contractually they are in a problem are and I can lay claims against them in terms of hundreds of millions, does not matter the currency.That is why the field is open to new players, like ASTA and Spider. The performance of these companies have been so bad, it should wipe them out if normsl thinking persons banded together, shocking.

Regards,

Philip

Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi Guys,

This is a great threads on planning ideas.

Actually, I developed a planning information for high level management in LRT projects. It was based on the basic principle of communicating the plan that make it easy to be understood without heavy thinking.

It is just a simple excel graphics that will straight away indentify the problems regarding viaduct construction. It shows the viaduct elements (piles, pile cap, pier, pier caps and segment installation).

I used excel only (graphics, drawings, worksheets). It was very effective. I always bear in mind the philosophy of my friends here in PP regarding communicating the plans, where we stands, how we can move on, how long will special machines/equipment for viaduct construction will be on standby due to delays in precast elements.

It is very straightforward that project teams acts on critical viaduct elements and activities, including activities at the precast yard.

I can not share with you the files because this is a very high profile and live project.

Anyway, i’ll try to develop project simulations, highlights the important events and share with you the pdf files

Cheers,

Charlie
Andreas,
I just answer questions and suggest people who ask them to move the discussion to some forum.
When we launch new release we supply it with the list of new functions and bugs that were discovered and eliminated. If some company does not need these functions and bugs appear only for some exotic situations they shall wait till the next release, etc. until they will decide that some new functions are useful for their projects. So IT people do not complain too much though yes, we know this problem.
I agree that philosophic items and answers to the questions on another software shall be moved to some other forum like Planning, Scheduling & Programming Discussion. I could not ignore the direct questions but please ask them in some other forum. Maybe Planning Planet moderators will move these questions as Philip suggested in his post.
Regards,
Vladimir
Andreas Ronczka
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Hi Vlad,

maybe you ask PPadmin to open another forum for Spider project rather setting them into the TILOS thread?
Anyhow, I agree in some words from you post, especially the face to face training. Doing it in this way gives customers always more benefit than e.g. web training. Problem here is that customers are sitting all over the world and expenses are higher that the training fee...
You also wrote that you are proud that you produce new versions monthly. Well, in this case you are the number one enemy from all administrators in bigger companies. Even Microsoft has to learn that. What the IT responsible like to have is software that work, produce no issues and need no effort. Update means all time effort for them.
TILOS had the same problem in past, to much releases, to much confusion, too much effort even for the support guys, fist question was always "which release do you use, ohhh, please visit website and update....". But ASTA promise to stop this.

Finally, from my point of view I like to discuss more technical things here than promoting software or philosophic items.

Regards,
Andi
Philip,
I agree with everything that you wrote.
We are famous for our customers support. In the Russian version of Spider Project Help there is Technical Support item. Choosing it you will be moved to the Spider support forum. You can ask any question, you can suggest some improvement, you can report bugs, you can see what others asked and reported. This forum is open for everybody, not only for our customers.
We are proud that the bugs are very rare but the forum is live and used for discussions of methodologies, rather complex solutions for simulating project resources, suggestions for future developments.
Our customers wrote that they appreciated not only the software reliability but even more that reported bugs are corrected immediately - in a day or two we launch new version where reported bug does not exist. Our customers feel safe. I think that we are the only software developer that stated in the license agreement that we will correct any bug that will be discovered by our users.
The software is continuously improved. We launch new version each month, new version means new features, not only corrected bugs.
We plan to launch similar English forum soon because now we have many foreign customers. Until now you will be able to send E-mail within the program and you will receive a reply the same day.
We encourage our customers to discuss with us Spider Project implementation, we are interested in the software proper usage. And we warn our customers that if they will think that Spider Project does not simulate something in your project ask us and we will explain how to do it. So we encourage our users not to find work arounds but discuss the problems with us. In most cases some features were overlooked.
Today we are concerned with the amount of possibilities suggested by Spider. The software looks too complex. In one of the nearest versions we will add an option to switch on and off some functions to make interface more user friendly.
But still I prefer face to face trainings.
And local support is needed not for the software training and support but for project management consulting.
Regards,
Vladimir
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

The point is that we need software that is stable and can run with minimal support, and if required quality support, 24/7/52/10, in other words all the time. I want software that can produce quality barchart, PERT diagrams, S-curves, Histogrammes, line of balance diagrams and any other analytical reports I need without add-ons, without the pain that is required by by most types of software. Compatability in software is also important, ie import and exports, without any exclucivity, thus creating an open market, where everybody can compete in terms of quality, support and the rest.

This may not be the forum to have discussed this, but if some of the other subscribers, open their eyes, they might welcome this.

It might be suggested to the PPAdmin, that they take cognisance of this, and duplicate some of these postings in a new forum about the shortfalls of planning software, and make software suppliers aware of this to improve the quality of service.

Thanks for your support guys, especially Vlad, and hope you can expand as a result, as I have always been tempted by your Spider Projects. I think ASTA have also been refreshing in their approach, and let the best men/women win

Regards All,

Philip
Philip Jonker
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Hi Anoon,

I do not have a problem learning new software, and yes all projects are supposed to be unique, some are more unique than others, but the basic principle remain the same, cost, quality and time time remain the basic principles which set the uniqueness of a project, but, the real problem in most instances is time. I know that virtually every wedding can be qualified as a project, but, most of them are governed by budget (cost) and /or quality. However the serious projects, such as the space race, time was always the factor, obviously, quality as well, but you could always have a bit of a quality problem now and then as long as you were first in time. This is why it important for us to have good tools, that can give us forecasting information in good time, so that we can know how to win the race against time, we need effective tools, that does not take too long to work out where the problem lies and how to fix it. If you read my previous posting, you will have some idwa, where I am coming from. The problem I have is not the linear software, but the performance of the planning software. So to find out how to navigate software is a matter of hours, to find out how to work unstable software takes weeks, the linear software in this instance is not the problem, but part of the solution.

regards

Philip

Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

Had a weekend break, with family visiting, and such, tried to ignore the more serious issues.

Vlad, as for your first posting, I think it is possible to market in a wider perspective, as we have the internet, as their is so many possibilities with the internet, like interactive sites where somebody else can view your screen, and oppositely., videeo conferencing etc, that any problem can be sorted out within hours, if not within minutes for known problems. Even training can be dne in this way. Finding this type of personal interactive support is rare, as you have to answer all kinds of e-mails, some of which is computor generated, and nothing ever happens, so you just give up. As for price, I am not too worried about that, but if you pay the price, the quality of the software must justify it, in other words, do not sell something at a premium price if it is half baked (You may have an idea what I am talking about). I am not someone who uses software support too regularly, as in most instances I can find a work around, or some or other way to resolve the problem. This is specifically where I realise the software does not have the capability, however when you pay a premium,and have expectations about something, and you find major problems, and cannot carry out simple tasks, you get a bit peeved of, especially when there is virtually no way to talk to the developers, and they supply you with so-called patches, which resolvoves none of the issues they lay claim to. I do not want to go into this further, but things are getting a bit out of hand in the marketplace and other parties should step into the bereach if they have better solutions.
I am so frustrated at present, about this, I can tear my hair out. I spent almost ten years on Open plan version 4 dos, and needed support twice, once we exceeded the maximum number of activities and got a extended version which meant simply driving 800km to got and collecting a sttify and loading it (these were the days before the days of the internet and fancy modems, I was on a remote site in the bush). With P3 I never had a problem serious enough to use support, but with OP professional I gave up, as the program was launched with too many problems. I contacted MSP once, and they sent out their expert (we paid a premium for him)who could not answer one of the questions we asked him, and said he would come back with answers, but we never heard from him again.

What I am trying to say is that if the software is good it should not need major support, the question is more about shortcomings in the software in terms of capabilities, and this is where all good software developers stand out, in that if you point out such shortfalls, they will put these improvements in place. When you pay for maintenance when you buy software, you are not paying for the developer to fix his problems, but, for new developments and improvemts.

Regards,

Philip
Anoon Iimos
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"We can discuss it in some other discussion - not in TILOS section."

I’m not bias, as well as not too serious. But might be carried away by a good marketing strategy.
We usually create optimistic, most probable and pessimistic project scenarios that may include different activities, resources, costs.
Basing on these estimates we define targets that may be achieved with reasonable probabilities and then control these probabilities trends.
Parallel design and construction is usual, but not knowing a bit about future development is quite rare.
We can discuss it in some other discussion - not in TILOS section.
Anoon Iimos
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Vlad,

I believe Engineering / Design is full of uncertainties. So to set up a schedule with uncertain details is making a sporadic plan. Resources cannot be quantified.

I forgot to mention that construction / operation goes parallel in a way, depending on the in-flow of approved details.

The thing is, you might get stucked on a certain distance for a certain time without even knowing a bit of the succeeding activities.
Spider simulates uncertainties and risks.
Regards,
Vladimir
Anoon Iimos
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"Simulating uncertainties is another task and Tilos will not help."

ha ha ha, that’s why T-square and a scale will do.

How will Spider work in this condition? I suppose it’s the same.
If detailed design data will become available you will be able to input them into the project schedule. As the result you will get new diagram that shows current plan that have more details. Until then you can work with the data that you have.
Simulating uncertainties is another task and Tilos will not help.
Anoon Iimos
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Vladimir,

I mean Detailed Design Development is in progress (at this point in time), but there is basic design, which can give you a rough idea about the stretch of the line.

I believe that Tilos doesn’t work in this condition. I’ll just settle for my T-square and triangular scale.

regards
Anoon,
please specify what do you mean by "how can the software be dynamic given the condition that you are going to insert approved details from the basic information / diagram that you had established."

In our software (Spider Project) time chainage diagram (we call it Linear Diagram) is one of the standard project Views like Gantt Chart, Network Diagram or Resource Gantt. I don’t know but suppose that Tilos imports data from PM software and its data are dynamic too. I think that Philip will explain if your question will be more specific.

Best Regards,
Vladimir
Anoon Iimos
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Philip,

I agree with you that it’s difficult to set up a plan using a tool (software) that you’re not familiar with. And wondering why developers keep on changing softwares that you need to learn from scratch before you can use it a while and find out that it’s much worse than the one you’re familiar with.

I believe when you said that inputs to develop these softwares must come from Planners, for Planning Principles never change, only technology changes.

I guess most projects are one time endeavors, and to use a new tool (software) with the new project, is like doing trial and error. If the project goes down, so is the software.

and business goes on...

regards
Anoon Iimos
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Hi Philip and Vlad,

Sorry for the late reply, i’m off on fridays. You are right Philip, the location is false, but the figure is quite correct and it’s very difficult to sort it out for various reasons (as explained below).

Anyway, i’m just trying to figure out if the Time-Location Chainage Software might work at this point in time, and how long can it be established, as you know training for personnel to handle it will take time. And as you had mentioned, it will be applicable only for construction activities considering complete details to work out.

What i’m trying to imagine is how can the software be dynamic given the condition that you are going to insert approved details from the basic information / diagram that you had established.

regards,

Anoon (also false)
Hi Philip,
thank you for the invitation but I don’t think that we have enough resources to promote our software around the globe. Today it is used in 14 countries though its largest markets are in Russia and Ukraine.
Here we are famous for our customer support and I am sure that we can suggest the software to the mass market only in those countries where we have our branches or strong partners. But we will be glad to sell the software to the professionals from any country who know why they need Spider Project. We will help to use it properly and to achieve best possible results.
As for price - I don’t think that you will pay attention to the software that is too cheap. So we are not cheap if you estimate the cost of the working version. But we supply our clients with the free and unlimited license for Spider Project Viewer that permits everything except changing project data. Usually these viewers are installed for 5 times more users than working versions (top management in particular). So you can divide the price of the license by 6.
If you will download Spider Demo I will help to learn it.
Best Regards,
Vladimir
Philip Jonker
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Hi Vlad,

I am not quite clear on what you are saying, but have some sort of idea. Maybe it is time to market spider in a way that other people can see it, use it and maybe then understand it and appreciate it. The point is you tell us about it, but it remains an enigma, and we may be working with tools, that are outdated, and do not know it because the better tools are not at hand for us.

Computor software is only as good as the markeying behind them, thus we are all stuck with Primavera, this is really a painful experience, as we hear rumours of better things, such as spider and power projects. Get out there and show us the power of the tools, so we can decide for ourselves, what is the best tools to use. Speaking for myself, the current tools take a lot of effort, and I am not a software guy, but an engineering professional who understands planning well, therefore I have a problem with continually having to learn the software problems and having to sort them out. As a good example, P3 was working very well without hassles and then the next "super version" could not perform half the tasks P3 could do. Prior to that we had Open Plan V4 dos, which was even better in some respects, but it was outdated by the advent of "Windows" and the supposed user friendlines, but the next release of Open Plan Professional became a total disaster, mightas well have been called closed plan.

I think the problem is a combination of things,firstly there is not enough input of professional/active planners into the software development, secondly they are disregarding the freedom of planners, to produce reports and to check what is happeining in the databases behind the program.

Lets get some real user friendly software back, where you do not have to be a software developer to write reports. And please then sell it at a competitive price, not at the exhorbitant fees that they do.

Maybe if MSP tried this philosyphy they could develop a good product.

Regards,

Philip
Philip Jonker
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By the way Anoon,

Change your location, as Antartica, is obviously a false location. There is no way they they are building a 800km pipeline there. I have three friends who have done their time there, So please sort this out.
Philip Jonker
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Hi Anoon,
A straight pipeline of 800km probably is less complicated than this. The number of planners you need is dependant on the number of working faces there is, and the complexity of the project, such as pump stations, distance to travel to find out what is happening etc.

Regards,

Philip
Philip Jonker
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Hi Anoon,

Anything distance related, can be placed on the graphics, in this instance for the purposes of clarity, we have chosen only construction related activities, as procurement and design is not always distance related. However, it is fairly simple if your design and procurement is split into distance, and you do not have interupted chainages. The complexity of the image you want to project, is up to yourself to decide, how to interpret it, so as not to give a jumbled view. I think the final product is determined by construction, and if you see problems here, go and investigate what is the problem, whether it is design or procurement.

Regards

Philip
Anoon Iimos
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sorry for the interruption, (it’s hard to work on two different things at the same time).

You mentioned that this can be interfaced with other programs (i.e. P3), isn’t it be more complicated?

I mean establishing Activities, Resources, Quantities, etc.

You gave 85 kilometer sample, (i.e. I got more that 800 kilometers) , how many people will compose the team if you need to establish the system?

regards
Anoon Iimos
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Hi Philip,

This is my understanding with the system as you had explained (kindly correct me if i misunderstood it):

You got x axis (horizontal) for distance scale, and y axis (vertical) for time scale. On top of this scale, you can place the mapping and the construction elements involved or the physical requirements.

But this requires tremendous details, which I believe starts from the drafting table or the drafting software for the drawings. Which means that you need to have complete drawing details prior to establishment of the chainage? Or a basic diagram / mapping will do? How can this be applicable to Engineering and Procurement?

Say, If I have a program (Level 1) considering the major milestones or contractual scope, wherein detailed design development is in progress and the inputs of approved details is on a periodic basis (i.e. monthly), Can this be inserted to the system partially to go with the incoming inputs?

I have some more questions...but this is all for now...

regards
Philip Jonker
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Hi Anoon,

I work on a 20" monitor, and unless you study the legend and then understand it, it iis still difficult to use. However, if you know the legend and the project (distance wise) it becomes very easy to follow. I maybe need to put something together in terms of a mini description of the project to help you understand it. The printout of the whole project is normally done in A0 width, 2,1m long, so to scan around the diagram on a 14" monitor becomes very difficult.

But when working in the program, you can zoom in and click on a specific activity, and be able to see the description, start and end chainages, length, dates, and any other info you need. If you spot a problem you can then go back to the source program and correct whatever the problem is.

The vertical axis in this instance is time starting from top to bottom, and the horizontal axis is distance/chainage going from left to right. However due to the nature of the project, we have had to use split chainages. The reason for this that the alignment of the railtrack is continually being optimised, the chainages was split into 8 groups mainly around 15km each, but with one of about 3km and the longest about 17km. Furthermore there is a fork in the railwayline so two different chainages run in parrallel for about 2km. in other words, the whole system is about 85km long, so if you made tem changes in on of the 8 areas, of lets say 5 metres each, you would have to adjust all the drawings by 50m. By splitting the chainages, you only have to adjust one eight of the drawings, and the others are unaffected.

Next, was that the main area on the project is the train Depot, which is near the centre of the project, as it is the hub of all the activities, as this is where it all starts. This was allocated the 0km chainage, whichich ich midway in the 300km chainages. Then then next chainage start allocated was the 100km chainage which starts on the left of the TCD (Time chainage diagram), ie he south boundary of the project, and then the section north of that the 200km chainages, then 300km, 400km, 500km and 600km chainages respectively heading north. But, somewhere roundabout 205,040km the railtrack split into two seperate tracks, one heading east towards the international airport and the other north. This split happens just after the track exits the underground (south) section, and here the chainage changes from 200km to 700km. I hope I am explaining this clearly, as it is not that easy too explain.

This area where the two tracks run in parrallel, is one of the most critical areas in the project, as we have too cross underneath one of the busiest highways in the country, as a cut and cover. You have two railtracks running parrallel as well as all the other factors involved, such as partially undercutting a landfill site, and cropping an industrial area . This is one of the most difficult areas on the TCD to understand, as the two areas are shown seperately and it took some time figuring out how to show this. But, if you study the maps at the top of the diagram TCD, you will get the grasp of it, just remember the orientation of the maps are not always the same, but suited to the aligment. The detail of the maps show this.

So even if it looks like a mish mash of autocad and excel, which it probably is in terms, the whole thing reflects the planning in terms of the program you have developed, in this case in Primavera.

Hope this is of assistance.

Regards,

Philip
Anoon Iimos
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Philip,

It’s very hard to read it using 14" monitor. And you need a plotter to print it on A0. Not to mention that you have to know all the symbols before you can even understand what’s drawn in there. I’m not saying that it doesn’t serve the purpose but it seems to me that it’s like a series of drawings sticked together in a scale.

It’s like a combination of autocad and excel.

Pardon for my ignorance, but if you can enlighten us a little bit, maybe we can understand.
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello Philip,

I got it.

It took me too long to open my mail. I’m on vacation, annual leave here in my old hometown to behold the green green cocunut trees.

I thanks you a lot.


Cheers,

Charlie
Anoon Iimos
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Hi Philip,

I got it, thank you very much. Sorry I cannot reply to your email because my system here is not working properly.


regards
Philip Jonker
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Hi Andreas,

I think we have spoken on the phone, no problem sending the guys the sruff. I sent Sven a copy about two months ago, so the diagram might even be on the website. I have two different diagrams here, one of which we did for a board presentation, which has a lot of detail on. It is a good example of what can be done with Tilos in terms of presentation.

Regards,

Philip
Andreas Ronczka
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Hi all,

if you visit ASTAs webpage (www.tilos.org) you will find lots of sample projects from diferent industries as PDF files.
Maybe this prevent Philip from sending thousands of mails.

regards

Andi
Anoon Iimos
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Hi Philip,

can you spare one for me also, i got more than 800 kilometers of piping in here..

my email is tarzan_pitt@yahoo.com


regards
Philip Jonker
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Hi Charlie and Vlad,

I have sent the Pdf’s, let me know if you have received them.

Regards,

Philip
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

I am here to share knowledge and experience, ie trying to help whomever needs it and trying to gain some experience from others who have had simular experiences. The reason I have not been such a good participant as in the past is all the bull, moderators, getting the name calling like sycopancy. Is this necessary, we are professionals andthere is no room for this.

This discussion is about Tilos and should remain as such, it is about improving the way we present our planning, and thinking lateraly, for other people to understand what we are trying to show them. It is about sharing ideas and improving the planning function.

Let’s think along these lines, and advance ourselves and our profession, instead of in-fighting.

Regards

Philip
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello Clive,

Let just be me.

This is one thing I love PP, I can be me. We can be whatever...

You dont have to react to my post, no need. I’m only a small fish in PP with 21 years ++ experience, not much compared to the big league, big guys, big time, big money, Im really nothing.

Anyway, whatever we post here will be under the watchful eyes of the moderator. The best we can do is to respect the decision of the moderators. If the post is really detrimental to the whole PP in general and specific individual PP member, there are mechanism to remove the post.

With respect to sycophancy, What I told Philip comes deep in my heart with all honesty. I always feel young, eager to learn if there is something new to me and relevanat to my work, in this case TILOS.

For the record, I prepared March Charts, Chemin de fer, Graphical Charts etc. using excel.

Cheers,

Charlie
Clive Randall
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Philip
Unfortunately the sycopantic post was moderated
However LOB stands for Line of Balance

I understand your problem regarding the short structures in relation to the length of the project and I think in the deleted post I did suggest that you may well have to put these on a stand alone programme to get the scale right.

The problem you are facing is one of horizontal exageration

I believe there is no way around this

As to my postings regarding Charlie this comes from an exsperated feeling that whatever is said is neither regarded or responded to but a diatribe of thoughts unconnected with reality are proposed. On ocassion this leads other readers me included to go outside the envelope with a size 10 boot.
I cant say I will be able to stop this unless a level of thought is adopted by Charlie prior to his more ridiculous postings.
Hi Philip,
welcome back.
I am also interested in your PDF’s, for me it is interesting to compare them with Spider Project linear diagrams. If it is not hard send them to spider@mail.cnt.ru
Thank you,
Vladimir
Philip Jonker
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Hi Charlie,

Will send you those PDF’s, not example, but the real thing.

Regards,

Philip

PS and no more sycophancy :-)
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

Clive,

Your LOB, obviously stands for ’length of building’, which is horizontal planning turned on it’s side, ie 90 degrees. The problem is how do you reflect this on a project which is 85km (50miles) in length, when the greatest difference in height is probably less than 300m (350 yards). You are trying to show a view of the overal program, so you show these vertical structures as vertical stacked bars, if you have a solution, I would greatly appreciate it, but words like sycophantic rush definitely does not belong here. The simple way to present these vertical structures, is obviously LOB, but that means presenting each one on their own schematic diagram, which is simple, but can only be done as seperate diagram, to reflect the structure. Hope you have some better answer. By the way my project transcends some 4 cities, and is definitely not ’Greenfield’.
Clive Randall
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One of the things Charlie that Philip and Andi are suggesting is that Tilos works where you have a linear project. Philip talks about 85k and obviously your contractor on a light rail is lookin at a similar scenario
However the station planning may require something different
Charlie the principles of TILOS is not new I believe and I think it comes from us old guys who did LOB planning
I certainly used LOB in high rise
The great thing about LOB or TILOS is its all on a single sheet so trend analysis is so easy, I dont think you can ever say that when you have a 20 page print out from Primavera or any other bar
chart programme
I would certainly advocate youe read up on this subject before you add more comments on this thread
oh by the way Charlie if a sycophantic rush should come over you such as the one that enveloped you and Philip please do not direct it in my direction as I have only been in the industry 31 years 5 short of Philip but I have built two major railways from scratch in the city not a green field.
Clive Randall
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"The best you can get from generation before us is manual planning. how it was done before the advent of planning software.

If you enter the electronics age of planning, it is dynamic and always young.

Take for example Primavera. How many times the software morph or upgraded that even your previous knowledge is not realiable already, meaning you have to start all over again to grasp the newer version."

Charlie this is really rather a strange idea, I feel you still believe that planning is all about producing a bar chart
That is so sad
Planning is about working out how to get from A to B software just accelerates the calculation, but the logic is the planners skill
That logic set is the key between a good planner and a software jockey.

Charleston-Joseph...
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Philip,

You are always brilliant, perhaps the greatest to me with regards to planning, project management, etc. It showed in your post. I think you have 36 ++ years of experience. I’m very junior to you since I only have 23++ years of experience.

Since you address “Hi Guys” so that includes me.

I want to let you know I’m very much interested in “If you are interested, I can send you some examples in pdf format, to show you the impact of the tool, in terms of presentation.”

Please include me in your preference to send pdf format.

I really need the sample since I’m now involved with Light Rails Transit.

My e-mail address is: charlieorbe@gmail.com.

I thank you in advance for you kindness and I believe you when you said “I can send you some examples in pdf format,”.


Cheers and best regards,

Charlie
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys and Irem,

I would would like to enter the fray here, after having been absent for a while, due to some time due to pressure.

To set the record straight, I spent some 20 years in projects, and used to do my planning myself on the drawing board, after this I spent another 16 years in planning, so I suppose I qualify as an old time planner. I have been using Tilos for about 16 months, and have found it one of the best visual tools to present the project in terms of planning, and also an excellent tool for checking the schedule (Primavera) for clashes and/or correctness. I am using Primavera PM v5, and am experiencing a lot of problems, but that is for another forum.

The way I have set it up to produce the Tilos time/distance diagram, was to run a hammock project in PM5 to minimise the number of activities in Tilos. The main reason for this is that the PM5 schedule contains some 35000 activities, a lot of which is related to design/procurement etc, ie non-construcion activities. further some of the construction activities are non-linear, ie such as shafts an buildings which happen over a limited horizontal distance, and are vertical (the projects spans a distance of 85km) so something that is even as much as 250m long shows as a vertical activities(In terms of time). The numberof activities I am running in Tilos is some 1300, and I show the baseline and forecasts, so I have some 2600 items on the diagram, excluding non-activity items and other objects. So Charlie, do not talk about 30 activities and other limitations until you have experienced it.

The main advantage is the fact that for the purposes of presentation, the diagrams produced can be understood by most people including laymen, and as such by far beats bar charts and the rest of the planning derivitives, such as histograms and s-curves etc. If you are interested, I can send you some examples in pdf format, to show you the impact of the tool, in terms of presentation.

I know you can do a time distance diagram on excel or cad, but what you want to see is what you are doing in your planning program, without the hassle.

Regards,

Philip
Andreas Ronczka
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Hi Charlie,

I will be pleased to philosophise about TILOS with you.

Andi

Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello Andreas,

I think I will have a chance to glimps TILOS.

Our EPC / Main Contractor will use TILOS.

I let you know any development.

Cheers,

Charlie
Anoon,
We used Linear Diagram that is similar to Tilos View presenting Caspian Pipeline construction schedule (750 km part). It was very helpful and easy to read.

Philip,
in Spider Project you can create and use any metrics in the Linear Diagrams (example: Stage 1, Stage 2, etc.). So it is not necessary to link design with the distance. I expect that Tilos also has this option.
Vladimir
Andreas Ronczka
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Whoww Charlie,

please accept my apology, I never want to scare you!
To award of misstakes let me point out:

1. We are talking about linear schedule, so a time-distance diagram is needed.
2. We are talking about doing projectmanagement rather than creating a "simple" schedule.

In this two cases I keep my opinion "...making a schedule without TILOS is dangerous...". Why?
Very easy, I don’t know any other software tool that gives me the functions I need to satisfy my requests.

If you like to know more about TILOS the easiest way is to visit there webpage www.tilos.org.
Here you also could request a demo version and ask for a web presentation.

enjoy,

Andi
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello Andi,

You scared me. I have been in planning projects for most of my time after university, and here you are telling our very own planning planet

"Finally, in my opinion, making a schedule without TILOS is dangerous."

Of course, our planning planet is unique because we can always say our opinion.

Is there a sample for tilos, let say, good for 30 activities. how to contact tilos?

Cheers,

Charlie

Andreas Ronczka
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Hi Charlie,

well, I will try my very best to enlight you ;-)))

First, I work with TILOS since 1998, so that was Version 1. After several years of not good experiances the developers decide to program TILOS complete new, so Version 2 was born. I went out with this version to lots of customers from the construction side and (mostly) all of them found TILOS helpfull, but strange in handling. My collegues any I collect lots of opinions to make the software easier and more powerfull and I would say since TILOS Version 5 the developers and the strategics found the "right way".
So two things inside TILOS maks me (as consultant and user) very happy with this software:
1. If I (or any other customer) has an idea to make the software better or more clearer you could go to the developers, talk to them and a few versions later you found your idea in the software. So TILOS is a real customer tool!
2. Most software visualize your thoughts, either in kind of a barchart or as timedistance drawing. But me as user have to tell the software how I like to have my schedule. As projects gets more and more complex, cost sensitive and time critical this doesn’t really help me, I have to think about all possibilities. TILOS could assist you while your schedule. You could e.g. create links between tasks that automaticly check that no clashing (on the distance) occur . So changing the work rate of my task change the duration and TILOS make sure that my schedule still works. THATS helpfull (in my opinion).

These are only some examples, there are lots more inside the software.

Finally, in my opinion, making a schedule without TILOS is dangerous.

Could you follow my mind???


Regards

Andi
Charleston-Joseph...
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Andreas,

Since I belong to the young "once", im history.

Perhaps you can enlighthen us on your opinion regarding TILOS.

A good enlightenment may start with:

a.) how long you used tilos (actually, a colleague of mine want to market a new branded software name "TULO")

b.) explain further why??? A simple "I think TILOS do so" is not enough.

Please take your time. Remember, you can always come in go in PP, no hard feeling.

Cheers,

charlie
Andreas Ronczka
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Hi Charlie,

interesting opinion.
Are you talking about drawing a plan or making projectmanagement? In the second case you will fail with manual drawing. You will start again and again and nobody will warn you making misstakes.

Generally, a good software guide a user through the steps and helps him while generating. I think TILOS do so!

regards

Andi
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi Irem,

The best you can get from generation before us is manual planning. how it was done before the advent of planning software.

If you enter the electronics age of planning, it is dynamic and always young.

Take for example Primavera. How many times the software morph or upgraded that even your previous knowledge is not realiable already, meaning you have to start all over again to grasp the newer version.

Cheers,

Charlie,
Irem Aksay
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Hello everyone

I just finished reading everything on TILOS and I saw nothing on its limitations. Not even success or failure stories. I think the topic some how went into maybe an even deeper topic. I am a young person and even I observe younger generation and sometimes think we were better(and there is not much gap btw us). But I am dead wrong... I think it is a matter of being different and not better. Software is not everything(I hope it is not because they are extremly easy to learn) but it sure gives you more time to truly analyze what you are doing. The most important thing is to take all we can from the generation before us and try to add our new tools to support them.
Philip Jonker
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Hi Andrew,

Maybe I did not answer your question, about making the news.

The point is that if the contract your are involved in is newsworthy enough, there will be factions trying to disrupt it, some trying to stop it and others that are all for it. I am working at present on such a high profile project, that is reported on, on a daily basis in and on most of the media. There is environmental issues, personal issues, etc, all of which affects the public in general, and the most interesting part of all of this, is the predictions, by the various media presenters, of whether the project has the chance of being successful. You can study all the hype, and it ends up, that most of the media presenters prefer to go the negative route, as in their view "bad news" is "good news", ie if you rebel against something new, at least your are thinking. So the general opinion amongst journalists is shoot it down, and if it loses you are succesful. If on the other hand it is succesful, you just drop the topic and pursue another issue, so you were wrong, sorry, everybody makes mistakes.
Journalists love issues, and they are probably right in one out of ten, but this is how they make their reputation, by telling people "I told you so" , even if they have only a 10% hit rate, people have short memories, and only remeber the journalist, for being right once, even if it is once in a hundred times. What is our job? Proving them wrong yhe 99 times.
Philip Jonker
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No! we are the good or bad contractors
Damian Smith
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Gents,

You are dead right, and furthermore this should be focused on more. We all have our good and bad contracts!
Andrew Flowerdew
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Philip,

How true that is. Only failure in construction makes the news.
Philip Jonker
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You obviously forget the project that are successful and on time, They probably outweigh the failures by far, the only problem is they are ignored, for the simple fact that good news is no news.
Damian Smith
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Slightly off topic, but it amazes me that for all the reporting, analysis, software programmes etc etc that a large number of projects within industry are late & over budget. Wembley for example

You’d think that in todays society, with all this planning & estimating software & fancy graphs we can produce, we’d be able to build something on time & to budget.

It seems to me that people create reports/graphs/programmes or whatever for other people to be able to reports or reports, make graphs of graphs etc and at the end of the day. We are still no better off.

Why do we do it??
Peter Holroyd
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But isn’t communicating the "Plan", engaging the team and gaining commitment to it what we are about - not the paper & pencils, post-it notes, spreadsheet, planning software, presentations, videos. The plan is theirs not ours - you have to "sell" it to them however you can and that’s what we get paid for.
Philip Jonker
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Hi guys,
I agree with most of you, on most points. The first point being that if you want to be a half decent planner you have to be able to plan on paper. After almost twenty years in the industry, where I planned manually, not as dedicated planners but as site managers/RE’s etc, suddenly there was software available on the market that could take the grind out of the job. Suddenly there was a market for people who could operate software. Then came the dedicated planners. They did not have the neccessary planning skills, but could operate the programs.
Projects became larger, and the detail became more intensive. You could now run huge projects and plan in detail down to the hour. The military caught on and instead of lenghty battle plans written by hand, the computor became the tool of choice, as planning software could plan by the minute or multiples thereof, and if necessary you could go to seconds. So the problem came up of how do you present all this information in a legible form? Simple, barcharts, s-curves, etc. The problem is not everybody can understand grapic representations in a two dimesional form, they want a more holistic picture. Some wanted spreadsheets with dates, others wanted other variations. Experienced individuals can read a Ghantt chart like a book, especially if the schedule is structured correctly, but you have to cater to the wider world. And, here we are talking mainly of linear projects, whether horizontally or vertically. The object is to present the project in as simple visual representation as possible, so that the safety people, IR, HR, QA, Procurement, Designers, etc, have a single picture to look at that they understand and makes sense to them. Tilos lends itself excellently to projects such as overland pipelines, motorways etc, but what about projects with non-linear activities in between, like booster pumpstations and interchanges. Here is where you have to start figuring it out for yourself.

The point is at this moment in time, I am locked into Primavera, and use Tilos as primerially a presentation tool. It works sometimes, and sometimes not. These tools, are written by programmers, without the input of planners.

This is probably not the right forum, but as a point of interest, Primavera P3 could produce s-curves with percentage progress, and the latest Primavera PM V5, cannot do this,ie % progress. It is called retrogression.

It is time for planners to stand up and demand the tools we want, and not to ripped of by software companies.

If any of you guys want to see the type of graphics tilos is capable of, I have an excellent representation, but no thanks to Tilos or primavera, we had to figure it out by ourselves.

Regards

Philip
Peter Holroyd
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there are a number of time-chainage software products around. Railway & pipeline sectors use them all the time.
It can be invaluable where multiple projects are working on the same railway for instance to give an overview of clashes between work sites

see QEI for instance
Andrew Flowerdew
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Richard,

As much as I’d like to think we never made mistakes or were in anyway inefficient in the good old days, I don’t think I’d go as far as to claim that. Hicups etc are inherent in construction projects due to thier complexity however good we think we are.

I agree that Tilos does no more than you can with a piece of paper and pen as far as determining the overall plan, a line on a screen tells you no more than a line on a piece of paper. But that line when combined with all the backgound data that can apply to it - progress, resources, outputs, quantities, costs, etc, etc - can be changed or updated somewhat quicker on screen than with a pen and the affect of the change on all that background data known at the click of a button. Speed and less prone to calculation mistakes is the advantage of computer software - at the end of the day this applies to any software, Tilos, PowerProject, P3 or whatever - I learn’t how to do CPM analysis manually before computers were around, it was invented along time before I knew it existed, but that doesn’t mean I want to go back to doing it manually and throw away P3 etc. Non of them do what couldn’t be done manually, they just do it quicker, more reliably and save alot of brain ache.
Hannes de Bruyne
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Hello Guys,

I know these discussions of the good old days to well. I have to listen to those stories on sites, told by elderly Site-Manager all the time.
Forget about those days - they are over.

What we need now are good tools to manage our work. And for time chainage schedules there were no good tools on the market yet. I even had to develope a tool in Excel with xy-Graph in the past.
I think Tilos is such a good tool. As it is developed in my home-town I have the possibility to visit the company. And I have the experience, that every call, every e-mail is answered. Problems are solved, errors corrected and suggestions included in the next version. My question about WMF-Format was answered in a peronal mail. Who ever called or e-mailed Primavera knows what this means.
Although I did not use resources and costs in Tilos yet, it is important, as clients not just pay worse, they also ask for more.
Richard Rush
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Andrew,

I am sorry that in my good old days that we (I) managed without the inefficiencies or cockups that you have experienced as for my generation both staff and labour then were better educated than nowadays.

You are overlooking the recessions in mid seventies (3day working - no petrol or electricity) and early eighties. Still with good management (no cockups) it was possible to turn jobs round from -10% margins at commencement to + 10 % at completion.

Getting back to the point of this web site "planning planet" not "software planet" - my critque on this board to to draw out what the software would give you over pencil and paper and whether buying the software would ever be profitable.

I suspect that at best this software "Tilos" is merely storing data so that mistakes can be more easily corrected. I cannot imagine that the initial data capture and planning exercise is much different in manhours whether Tilos or pencil/paper is used.

So working on the basis that the better educated old timers make less or no mistakes and if so can easily use a rubber to correct the pencil lines then I am still perplexed as why someone would want to pay thousands for this software.

Best Regards

Richard
Andrew Flowerdew
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Richard,

Somehow we managed in days long gone by walking out on site, having a look, marking up a piece of paper on the wall and making decisions - it was the best we could do at the time and it worked, but in those days we seem to have had time to do what we needed to do - and somewhat larger profit margins than we work on today. Then came the recession in the early nineties, profit margins dissapeared (to negative numbers in some cases) and the world got that much tougher. I’ve never seen a job priced since with a profit margin of 20 - 25% as may have been the case pre recession times. We had big enough margins then to make up for the inefficiencies, the cock up’s, the work done twice, the non productive Friday afternoons down the pub.... ....the good old days are long gone.

These days every client wants to have his project finished yesterday, the contractors still want to make their margin or more and if abit of software can take some of the guess work out of the decision making and do it at the click of a buttom then I’m afraid I’m all for it - anything that helps. Phillips quite right though, never take blindly the information that a computer tells you, gut feeling and experience still plays a part in the decision making process, but as I said, if it can help save some time scribbling on paper and pushing buttons on a calculator, then I’m all for it.
Philip Jonker
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Hi richard,
They did not understand the era prior to computors, they are all born late, however, Computors are tools, and not the be all and end all.
Thereis still some room for the human mind
Richard Rush
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My Dear Boy,

Why would you want to resource and cost load a time-chainage diagram?

Its sole purpose is to ensure that the scrapers keep ahead of the drain layers who keep ahead of the blacktop gang etc ad infinitum?

Are you trying to manage the work or plan your claim?

Richard
Andrew Flowerdew
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Richard,

Sorry, don’t quite stretch back to the sixties workwise but I can remember doing it just as you say - A0 drawing board, set square and a long metal ruler always came in handy!

The only difference today is you can resource load the programme, cost it, etc and the software will give you useful answers at the click of a button. The ideas or methods are the same but some of the answers just come quicker! Oh, and the ink doesn’t smudge.
Richard Rush
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Sorry chaps, we did this stuff back in the 60’s, so whats needed beyond a drawing board and an adjustable set square??

I guess you mere mortals have forgotten how we used to build the big stuff.

Software is a poor excuse for a lack of engineering skills.

Richard
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,
Lets talk about the tecnicalities, and how the program performs, rather than semantics
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi Andrew,

That’s expensive.

No need for me to tell my boss. But i think my boss know about this software.

I will settle for exceel worksheet.

But this time, ill try to link using formula cost and resources in my time chainage.

cheers,

Charlie