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Hello, I am new to the study of project management and am working on implementing a WBS. IF I understand it correctly, here is one example of phase breakdown for a project:
1. Define
2. Plan
3. Execute
4. Close Out
Questions:
A. I assume that somewhere in #2 the WBS is created?
B. Does the WBS then get listed primarily under #3? In other words, if I were creating a project outline and listing WBS tasks under phases would it be:
Execute
-WBS Task 1...and so on?
C. So let's use construction as an example, and this gets top the heart of my question. Every example construction WBS that I see starts with the assumption that the home is already designed, for instance it will start with "excavate" or something like that. But *where* does all of the design work fall that has to take place before that, for instance, the drafting of the architectural plans? How can the scope be worth the paper it is written on if there is no design? Isn't the design integral to creating a meaningful WBS, not to mention an estimate? OR is the design something that gets carried out in the execution phase, as on the other hand it does seems to fall under part of the project "work"??
Hopefully my question makes sense as I may be working under some false understandings.
Thank you in advance for any assistance.
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Mike,
I cannot imagine on how you do your planning without having to use WBS. I believe the definition of WBS is work breakdown structure.
So in vertical and horizontal structuring you may need codings so as to reflect your timeline which is always horizontal (I supposed).
cheers
Hi Anoon
One of the benefits of using powerproject software is that WBS is optional - that is why I have never had to use it.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Mike,
You might try, vertical WBS, and horizontal WBS. Vertical being discipline wise (Standard); and horizontal as control areas (variables).
cheers
Hi Donald
I agree with what you say but how is this acheived by using WBS?
Best regards
Mike Testro
One of the problems that I perennially see is projects being carried out without proper functional integration between the engineering, procurement, construction and commissioning disciplines. It is essential that the WBS is created in such a way the clear links can be established between functions, phases and deliverables. Only by doing this can a clear understanding of the program constraints and drivers, either internal or external, be established. I think that construction planning at level 4 without a mature well developed design and reliable procurement plan is largely a waste of time. Inevitably the schedule will have to be revised when the engineering and procurement details have been established.
BTW, your answers helped give me a clear answer - while seperating design and built into two projects were intitially attractive to me from a conceptual point of view, ONE project is the best answer for us.
Mike and Gary,
Thanks again for sharing your expertise, it is invaluable to me at this stage and both of your answers help a lot.
BTW, part of my earlier misunderstanding was that I was under the impression that define/plan/execute/close were "top level" sequential phases that would be at the top of the WBS and that other phases (procure/build) would fall underneath those in a sequential outline view. Therefore my mind kept asking "how can I plan if I don't even have a design yet". A little more reading has made me understand (I think) that define/plan etc. are not merely sequential phases but are considered "process groups" which can be applied to different phases throughout the lifecycle of a project. Correct?
Questions you should be asking yourself would include:
Hi Richard
The design and construction are integrated phases of the same project and should not be separated.
It doesn't matter if the design is in house or procured by the employer.
The problem is that you have to prepare the construction programme before the detailed design sequence can be linked in.
The usual sequence is:
Outline design prepared
BOQ - cost plan
Construction programme at level 4
A lot of members in PP state that they cannot prepare a level 4 programme from an outline design but it can be done if you know what you are building.
The detailed design can then be integrated with the construction programme.
All this is explained in the training modules to be found at
Best regards
Mike Testro
"Whether design & construction would be part of a single project or seperate ones would depend on who is doing them. In a Design and Build contract arrangement where a single organisatino does both, you could reasonably expect there to a be a single project including both design and build."
While I realize there is no "right" or "wrong" on this issue, I'd like to hear more input on it from members. Let's assume that the same firm is doing the design and the build. How would you decide on whether the design and build should be defined as a single project, or two distinct projects? What questions should I ask myself? I realize of course that this is a very broad question and if you need more detail I can supply it. If it helps, "design" would usually consist of 160 - 320 man-hours. Build would be several times that. Also, in our business design and build are typically seperate in terms of agreements and payments. That is, first we perform a design based on an agreement and get paid for it. As part of the design deliverable we provide an estimate for build. If the design and estimate are accepted (they virtually always are), then a contract is signed and a desposit obtained for build.
Personally, I'm leaning towards seperating it into two projects because it seems as though it would quite nicely categorize and drive focus on the two major elements of each of our projects, and I like the idea of not exerting a single ounce of focus on build as part of the project management until the design phase is done. But whether this is a good idea, or I'm just leaning towards it because it's easier for me to conceptualize, I don't know.
I should note that in my own instance I am not talking about construction, but rather than bore everyone with the unncessary details, let's just say that the construction field is an excellent metaphor for my field. Good project management is rarely employed or even followed in my field, and I'm working to change that for my own business.
Edit: Post deleted, Gary, I reread your response, and it now makes sense to me.
Thank you both for your replies.
Hi Richard
If you have not got any form of design then you cannot programme the construction.
Your query would take place at Level 1 Programme where the feasibility study is taking place.
You have to use your experience to block out level 2 bar durations for the several stages of the project implementation.
I once created a bill of quantities and a level 4 construction programme on the basis of an estate agents brochure for a Central London office block - so you don't need much detail to start work.
My own experience told me that a piled basement would be necessary to accomodate the number of parking spaces and the plant rooms - and what external cladding would be allowed by the fire regulations etc.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Mukltiple posts deleted -this often happens when you hit the "save" button more than once while waiting for the next page to load.
With reference to your query:
1. Some design would happen in the 'define' phase (eg concept design -how many buildings? iconic ultra-modern architectural wet-dream, or something more mundane?). Some design would happen in the 'plan' phase (eg construction materials and methodologies). Some may not happen until the 'excecute' phase (eg external lighting layouts)
2. Whether design & construction would be part of a single project or seperate ones would depend on who is doing them. In a Design and Build contract arrangement where a single organisatino does both, you could reasonably expect there to a be a single project including both design and build.
I think where you're getting confused is with your original premise of these 4 phases. I have never seen a project schedule, wbs, estimate, contract, scope doc, or anything split down like this. a more common (and I would suggest useful) split would be something like design, procurement, construction, and commissioning.
Cheers,
G
Sorry, I have no idea why my last reply is showing up 3 times. And I don't see a delete option. Nor do I see why it's showing up above Mike's post instead of below it. Not used to this forum.
Thanks Mike. This question may indicate that I'm still missing the point, but I'll ask it anyway :-)! Let's remove the WBS from the equation altogether. Let's say we have a construction project for building a 100,000 sq ft building. We'll call it "build new office center".
1. How can we perform phases 1 & 2 (define; plan) if we don't even have a design (no architectural prints) yet? That's why I asked if having the architect perform the design would be considered part of the "define" phase?
2. OR, would we have two projects, with the first being project named "design new office center". And then after that project is completed, initiate a new project named "build office center"? In that case it would make sense to me that for the first project define and plan could be performed in a meaningful way, because they'd be preparing to perform the design. Where I'm getting confused is if "build new office center" is one project that includes the design and the build, than I don't see how you can adequately define and plan for the project when you don't even have blueprints.
Thanks again.
Hi Richard
You seem to be missing the point of a WBS system.
It is simply a set of codes that allow estimating and accounting systems link up with programming tasks.
You do not have to have a WBS to create a construction programme - I never use them at all.
If you have design elements in your programme then they are best bolted on the construction programme.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Email: PPadmin@planningplanet.com
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