Dear Vladimir,

Can we buy/download the:

"internal Project Management Guidelines that describe project management processes and decision making routines, corporate databases (production norms, unit costs, material requirements per volume unit for different activity types, etc.), templates, resource, costs and material dictionaries, risk register, etc"

I would like to read the material if it is available.

With kind regards,

Samer

Hi Vladimir,

Your qouted exactly what I post. "Project Management never relied on tools. It is used only as a guide or assistance to speed up the process."


As I always said, I have no comment in regards to SPIDER since I don’t have any idea what is it capable of. If the chances permit me, I will love it for sure.

What do you mean by this? "But destroying the contractor project management system is not in your interests at all."

Best Regards,
Rodel

Hi Vladimir,

Thank you for your kind explanation and that’s exactly my point.

Here are my quotes ” In real world nothing is perfect; there is always a right tool to a right place.” – (same as what you said)

we are more concerned on communication and compatibility rather than talking to different language that leads to different ways. (We adopt what is required to have same language to understand each other)

“Clients or stakeholders always looking for systems that compatible to their system as much as possible so the data exchange and communications will much easier.” (If we use different systems from each other how are we able to communicate?)

Best Regards,
Rodel

Rafael,

My apology if your thinks I’m wrong. If that’s what you believe go for it. Be happy and wish you all the best of luck.

Best Regards,
Rodel

Hi Rafael,

I’m not taking it personally. I love to help and guide those people whose being blind, brainwash due to his belief. We in planning planet not only concerned on a tools we used. We are more concerned on sharing our knowledge, expertise and guide people on the right path. We don’t criticize something that we don’t know about.

We know how to accept fault and defeat. We are open minded and not self concentrate.

I’m not questioning your ability and I keep saying everyone has a right to voice out their opinion and we respect it. If you want to be respected you need to be open minded. In real world nothing is perfect; there is always a right tool to a right place.

We are more concerned on communication and compatibility rather than talking to different language that leads to different ways.

If you’re saying that the perfect tool is spider why the developer/ creator is not claiming that they have the perfect and best planning tool in the whole world?

As you said you haven’t tried P6 on your example, how can you prove that you are correct?

Don’t make conclusion for something that you haven’t prove yet.

Again if that’s your belief and opinion I respect that.

Thank you,
Rodel

Hi Rafael,
I pity you. It’s so sad to hear that you are being carried away by your tools. I’m not sure if you know the correct way of managing a project. Project Management never relied on tools. It is used only as a guide or assistance to speed up the process. Always remember no matter what tools you use it will not decides for you. A tool dependant Project Management always leads to defeat and failure. A good leader always uses his conscience, expertise, and experience in decision making and not allows the tools to decide for him.

Project Management is not only resource management. Cost, Time, Quality is the 3 key for planning. The rest will follow like risk, safety, communication…etc…

As I mention to you before, FLOAT IS NOT REAL!!! It is only an estimate and used as guide or indicator. No math or science has been proven yet to make it perfect. Planning tool will not tell you if your Project is safe, will not tell you what risk is involve, the quality of your works, resources are too crowded and poor productivity and many others. Planning tools will not make you as a good planner.

Note:
Clients or stakeholders always looking for systems that compatible to their system as much as possible so the data exchange and communications will much easier.

Best Regards,
Rodel

Hi Rafael,

I suspect that you haven’t actually tried it in P6.

Please try it in P6 and tell us what you found out.

R. Catalan,

Resource levelling is important from the start, so you need to do it as accurately as you can during assigning of resources.

For me, it always depend on how you had structured your activities.

Best regards

Hi Rodel,

That’s what I’m trying to say, all plans can be wrong because of differences in perceptions. It is just in the imagination and how do you create an ideal interface between imaginations?

Hi Scarllet,

I believe there is a solution, and that’s what we are always trying to find out.

Best regards

IMHO,

I think what was missed in this discussion is the politics involved in projects.

There is no democracy in project development because the contract dictates what are the deliverables. There is no free will as we experience in a democratic world.

So while the thread is trying hard to state something wrong somewhere, there is no solution. As small time planning engineer, we just learned to move on since there is no solution.

Thank you,
Scarlett

Vladimir,
As I have mention, every company has their own common need and not all packages can substantiate those need. Our company deals internationally and various country and with the help off modern technology and online facility gave us more advantage like having a live schedule up to date for a top management in different places with out asking for a schedule in each project. It’s all there available online.

Project Management is not only dealing with resource management, the planning itself deals with cost, time, resource, quality, safety etc… and feasibility of schedule are not only dealing with resources, it can be analyzed in many different ways where a good planner can demonstrate his ability and knowledge on project management. Planning tool will be a good help but not always the case. If a schedule is only use for presentation why we plan? What’s the used of planner? Why we schedule our work?

Best Regards,
Rodel

Mimoune,

Thanks for the advised. I’m an architect in profession but grown more at site and construction instead on my drawing board and concentrate on the design. I love database especially when I learned how powerful it is by the used of different application and having integrated system that works fine.

Vladimir,
I’m sure you know the difference between 2 processes and a single process, online and offline. Like what you said all software’s had different advantages and disadvantages. Every company has their own common needs where on our case enterprise and open database are more appropriate.

Rafael,
Yes we do resource leveling when required. That’s one module from planning tool that every planner can live without it. As we know not all planners do resource leveling and it is not a day to day basis requirement. Every ones has their own need and specialty. Planning tool is just a tool that can used to make planners job easier than before. Some planner with out the knowledge of using this tool still can have their schedule and plan according to their knowledge and methodology but finished it on time and accomplished the works successfully. Before I used lotus 123 then excel to draw my schedule because those tools are not available until been installed and available to use but we manage to live with our schedule successfully.

Float is good to analyze project situation and very helpful if we know how to use it. But always remember float is not real. It is only an estimate and not a perfect science. Some planning tools maybe capable of producing it more accurate but is it necessity on planner daily works? Schedule is just a guide and not 100% perfect. I haven’t seen a Project that runs 100% according to the schedule. There are lots of technique has been used and introduce like CCPM, Theory of Constrain (TOC), CPM etc… but still not perfect.

Everyone has the right to have their opinion and everyone have their own talent. You may love your planning tools because it works for you but 100% sure not everyone have the same satisfaction like you are. Every planning tools have their own characteristics and capability but again it’s always depends on users needs. A good planner is not because he is a good operator of a planning tools, I seen a lot of planner that are very talented on using their tools, good presentation and reports but don’t know how to read a plan, coordinate with construction personnel, no knowledge on construction methodology, how activity has been derived, no knowledge in estimating and etc… so end up just an encoder or operator. (Majority of them are IT joins in a construction industry).

Friendly word of advised. Don’t criticize something that you don’t know about. It might fire back to you. WE have a saying “Little knowledge is dangerous”.

Best Regards,
Rodel

Vladimir

i repeat what i have said before, i find spider very interesting( resource leveling, importing past period performance), and SDPM very promoting,at least it take into account criticality of tasks (that what I understood from the little documentations I could read) and i hope we will live in a world of diversity, i hate when i speak with others planners, and they have never heard about spider, powerproject, safran, openplan, x-planner,they thought Planning = CPM = Primavera (high end), Ms project (low end)
but i wish from you more effort to promote spider outside of Russia, i wish to read books about spider usage in English, i wish someday that you create a north American subsidiary. i love competitions, it is what drive innovations. And at the end of the day, the planner will gain.

for ODBC connectivity usage, and why integration is the new hot topic in portfolio management, i think Rodel has better explain it then me.



Rodel

let’s be honest, working with SQL database is not so easy, at least for a guy like me, i am a civil engineer, for example linking from SQL server to Excel is easy, but the other direction is not so simple (you know that already), and please don’t be so humble.


mimoune

Rodel,
I already wrote that changing data date without changing the remaining durations and moving dependent activities is misleading.
I don’t agree that importing requires double effort. If the process is established then it is just one command.
But in this case your schedule is always valid, the state when different activities have different data dates can be escaped.
Each approach has own advantages.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Rodel,
I cannot understand moving data date without scheduling. If remaining duration is changed then it is not just the moving of the data date, it is moving future events and dependent activities. It cannot be done without scheduling. Another option - looking to the wrong schedule.

When all reports will come and the data date becomes the same for all objects the model can be rescheduled.

Now imagine that all actual data are collected in Excel (or some other external program) and before rescheduling are moved to the Primavera database. In this case previous approved schedule is available to the moment when new schedule will replace the old one.

I don’t see the serious advantages of the first process. Direct access or importing does not change much.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Vladimir,
I understand what you’re saying but in our case was different. This is how it works. We have an in-house database link to Primavera database where other stations are operating. The database was capable of viewing schedule data on the database where priority, look ahead, quantity are viewable for each item. Ex: Spool fabrication, supports, galvanizing, painting, insulation and many others. Weekly the other stations will input what they accomplished and we have a cut-off date. P6 has a capability of moving data date without scheduling (F9). When report comes, just a press of a button a new fresh schedule will come up.

Best Regards,
Rodel

Rodel,
if the data dates for different schedule objects are not the same the schedule model is not workable.
You will not be able to reschedule, to provide most reports, the model is useless.
So there is a need for the certain data entry (or import) schedule - at what time, at what dates. Entering actual data between these dates shall be banned.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Rodel,
I agree that the data shall be entered only once.
But I don’t see much difference between capabilities of import/export and direct access.
Project schedule shall be updated at the certain predefined moments and it does not matter much what is the way of updating data to these moments (direct access or import from other softwares).
I don’t mean Spider, this is theoretical discussion.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Hi Vladimir,
I’m not saying that Spider has problem and like what I said I have no idea what Spider capable of.

My examples is for those planning tools which don’t have capability of direct exchange of data to avoid double input, use automation and interfacing to another system.
Ex: A schedule data is link to another system that been published electronically without worrying that the data is out of date.

An up to date program that can be accessed to another system in different format where contractor can view electronically on their own system like fabrication schedule look ahead and target completion. It may be on tabular format or table format for each activity with correct data online and many others.

Rafael,

I respect your opinion and we are happy for you. You love something that makes you happy then it’s you to enjoy it.

Like what I mention, I haven’t use Spider and looking forward to have a chance in the future. I used Artemis where I began to have interest in database, Microsoft Project, P3, P3e (P4), P3e/c, P5, P6 and I don’t have problem with all of them. If I got a chance of using Spider I will love it for sure.

For you info, P6 database doesn’t require any PhD like what you mentioned. It is simple and very easy to understand. It is an open database where integration and interfacing is very possible to any system which I believed one of the selling points of Primavera. SQL is very popular everywhere and very common to all system. It can be accessed directly through SQL or any Open Database Connectivity (ODBC).

Hi Mimoune,

Thanks for the information. I understand what you’re saying and I agree with your thought. The simplest and easy accessible is the better. But we are now on the age of modern science where every system requires full interface, common control and one system that operate everything in one single station .One of the selling advantage of every a company now is a good system that produce everything with compatibility to clients system. Data exchange is now very important especially in the electronic and computer world like now.

Best Regards,
Rodel

Mimoune,
I live in Russia and in my country Spider Project is most popular and widely used professional PM tool.
All large programs here are managed with Spider Project and we are involved in the management of some of them (with total budget exceeding $60bln).
We are happy with this.
We support our partners and users in other countries (28).
But it is your choice - what software to select. It depends on your requirements. I think that the wide choice is better than no choice.

Why do you need ODBC driver? Is there some special purpose or just in case ...

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Vladimir

no you did not wrote that" spider is the best thing invented after after CPM", i only meant is that the software is as good as it is actually used, what’s the point of a fantastic tool if it is used only by a small number of people.

Rafael

P6.7 include by default oracle database, but if you upgrade from p6.2, you can keep, your Microsoft Database, but to be honest installing oracle express edition is not so intuitive, specially if you screw up the first installation and you want to do a re-installation, it is a nightmare, because even when you remove the first installations, some files simply stay, and if you want to install again, the system will tell you, that oracle database are already installed, the only solution some manual deleting. and a lot of googling.

Rodel

from my understanding, spider use a kind of embedded proprietary database, the advantages, it is installed with the software, no need to configure anything, and you can export, import any imaginable data, but unfortunately there is no driver available, thus no live ODBC queries.

and if i had to choose,in case of stand alone usage, i would prefer something like SQlite, small footprint, embedded with the software, and has good driver.

for enterprise usage, it is clear, a kick ass oracle 11 database.

but using full database system for a standalone usage is ....

best regards
Mimoune

Hi Rodel,
since the schedule model is valid only if the data date is common for all schedule objects there is not much difference between the options that you suggested.
In any case the model shall be updated in the discreet moments and open database has no advantages against import/export function.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Then the network - if there are activities without predecessors/ successors, if there are constraints like Start no Earlier Then.
And only then the schedule itself - if resources were levelled, if it can be improved.

Rafael,
math computations are useless if they are based on the data that are not reliable.
The first step of the schedule verification is the verification of its initial data. If they are not reliable then all schedule improvements do not make any sense.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Dear Samer,
I looked at the paper that you advised and did not find the answers to my questions.

I think that did not understand what do you mean by audit.
Being on site does not help to audit the quality of the project schedule that may cover long period.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Dear Vladimir,

You asked me about what procedure that I propose for internal audits. I found this article that I posted yesterday under Contracts:
"
Applying Internal Controls Skills on Construction Projects*

Alexia Nalewaik, CCE MRICS. *This article first appeared on the website of RICA Americas
http://www.ricsamericas.org/member-articles.html and is reprinted ...
www.icoste.org/ICMJ%20Papers/Nalewaik3.pdf
"

This is a good start showing the direction.

With kind regards,

Samer

Rafael,
there are no restrictions of Spider Viewer usage for our customers. They can install them on any number of computers and supply their clients, customers, subcontractors for free.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Hi Samer,
when the schedule is based on the estimates and expert judgement the verification process includes the verification of the estimates.

For an example:
1) If the crew assigned to an activity is full and reasonable,
2) If the productivity of assigned resources is correct,
3) If the crews and productivities are the same for all activities of the same type in the whole schedule,
4) If all necessary materials were assigned and material consumption corresponds with the quantity of work to be done on each activity,
5) If material consumption norms (consumption per activity volume unit) are the same for all activities of the same type,
I can add to the list cost verification, etc.

It is very time consuming and the work will be much easier if you may be sure that all data are based on the norms that are listed in the separate tables.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Dear Vladimir,

I was checking 5000 activity Schedules each for 5-6 Contractors on a monthly basis. Each schedule should not take more than 4-6 hours to check if the activities, logic, durations, scope changes, resources, percentages, or schedule changes have been done. I always know more about the site than any other person for the simple reason that I spend at least 12 hours daily on sites not in the office site. So all my reviews are actually very clear, quick, and with the latest information since I have direct contact with all the supervisors and teams in addition to the management teams.

You can also run variance reports like claim digger to get a variance list once you get the baseline approved.

Softwares today do much more than Scheduling; reflecting the project planning, monitor progress, and provide trends and forcasting.

With kind regards,

Samer

Hi Mimoune,
the standard format means the same data set?
But they are different. Please look at my earlier posts.
A set of fields in Spider Project is different.
We can import almost everything but export only those fields that will be understood by other packages.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Dear Rafael,

It seems that the Spider team has created a great tool since it stood your indepth analysis and output requirements. But the question is: How do you verify the results?

With kind regards,

Samer

Dear Vladimir,

When you start going into that level of details, it becomes more than a Scheduling tool. It becomes a management tool. IMHO you need an audit on the process.

If you do any kind of computations, you need verification. If you are doing a process, then a standard audit procedure is acceptable.

With kind regards,

Samer

Samer,
Spider can export the schedules directly to P6 and MS Project, save as a set of CSV files, send any table to Excel, etc.
I talk about another problem - where we can export activity volumes of work, resource assignment productivities, team assignments, cost components, resource and material production, project financing, etc?
Do you know such fields in the Primavera database?
So yes, we send what can be understood - durations, relations, total costs. But a lot of information is lost.
And besides P6 cannot simulate shift work.
So P6 will not verify Spider schedule, and besides Spider optimizes resource constrained schedules, level not only renewable resources but also materials and costs.
P6 produce some resource constrained schedule and cannot level materials and costs.
And what P6 can verify?

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Samer,
verification of the results produced by one software using other software is impossible. Different softwares use different algorithms and have different modelling capabilities.
If you will download Spider Project and will try to create the same project as construction example in Demo in P6, you will find that in P6 it is just impossible.
Best Regards,
Vladimir

Hi all

vendor lock-in is a well known practice in the software industry, and the most famous case is sun (now oracle) open office versus Microsoft office, sun created an open file format (ODF) to make exchange files between competing office suite possible, Microsoft riposted by creating a competing file format OOXML, and even managed to make it an ISO standard, the hick is even microsoft is not interested to fully comply to it’s own standard, see the link bellow for further information
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/04/microsoft-office-15not-201...

but the question is what’s the benefit to Oracle and Microsoft to adopt an open exchange format for scheduling software ! Nothing, after all, they are interested that you buy their packages, not to make your life easy to change to another product.
Now the real question why the others vendors( asta, deltek, spider,sciformat, x-planner) are not adopting a standard format. Perhaps they are happy about their niche market.
Independent vendor should be more creative, for example, spider, perhaps something like free spider viewer, where you can load your program and print view all the reports you want,

best regards.
Mimoune

Dear RAfael,

Open bidding is a different issue. The committee assigned by the Owner determines what is best for the project and it qualifies a short list of qualified tenderers. Hence, the playing field should be leveled to all players.

In a standard management system, say ISO, you need to verify the results and later validate it. The verification of the computations done by a computer software can be made by another software or by hand. And in both cases, by a different person. This is the minimum acceptable management standards that should be the norm in the future.

With kind regards,

Samer

Rafael,
My apology, wrong choice of words, it should be request and not beg. I know you understand what I mean.

Here in Australia we have freedom and respect our rule.

Best Regards,
Rodel

Rafael,
I admire your vision and everyone is whishing the same. The question is who is capable to do what we wish for? A computer programmer/ software developer is doing what they can do by trial and error but nobody is perfect. Even the most powerful software still having bugs but they will not know the problem until someone discovers or encounter while using it. Any software developer or companies spend a lot of moneys for a project and completed for sure they need something to comeback and the only way of doing it is to release their products and have it tested for long period of time. If bug has been discover for sure an action from their side will be made and release patches to fix it. But that’s not an easy fix and something will come out again and again until another products or upgrade will be release again. If you read the brief history of planning and scheduling started from manual to computer to nothing until someone tried to give a try again but until now still not perfect. The old computer was running in a punch card now multi-terabyte and more enhancement and more innovative modern technology still coming.

We should thanks we are now living in much easier and modern technology compare to what we have before. From manual to abacus to calculator now computer and more to come. An organization/ institution has nothing to do with what we have. They support what they believe which has been reviewed by the expert and decided by the top rank management.

In regard to owner nominating there preference, what wrong with that? They just want to justify what they are paying for. If they believed that will do the job and a contractor agreed then what’s the problem? They did not force them; the contractor was the one begging. If the contractor dictating what they want then what will happen? Whose client will bind to that kind of agreement?

w/ Kind Regards,
Rodel

Dear Rafael,

Amazingly enough, amongst 100 economies in the world, I have read that there are 51 companies! So the definition of free enterprise is changing, like everthing else in the world. When you see specification clearly stating the specific brand, then the only reason for that is someone is pushing to use this brand.

I think that if the tool makers outline clearly how the black box is getting the results in the help section, things would get simpler to verify and to use. You end up gaining experience with what works with the software to operate it, not what is the correct theory of doing things and how to verify the correct answer.

With kind regards,

Samer

Dear Rafael,

What do you recommend that the tool makers do to improve their tools?

With kind regads,

Samer