Thanks for finishing this thread "The Road to a shame"

Cheers,

I second your motion Mike.

We do need to move on.

Cheers,
Happy Planning and Scheduling

Mike,

In an ideal world, of course, you are quite right, a polite admonition that his behaviour is not acceptable would be all that was needed. Unfortunately this is not an ideal world and with Charlie polite admonitions are ignored. His arrogance is such that he truly believes that he can say and do no wrong, something which I have no doubt is apparent to you as you have read most of his posts.

You said yourself that you had to slap him down when he was particularly unpleasant to Carmen. Unfortunately even this seems to register for only a limited period, so the only remedy is to react as David described when he becomes particularly obnoxious.

As for voting him off, yes, we could do that, but the ease with which a mail account can be opened under a different name really make that pretty much a waste of time. The only recourse seems to be to treat his excusions into xenophobia, homophobia, racial discrimination harshly to show that they have no place on this forum. Hopefully this will eventually get through to him.

Chris Oggham

Being new to all this in this typical forum, why cant we all be civilised about this, even in the present climate, When someone starts to offend people on here why do people react in a way that we all get to read about it.

Lets make this a full debate on the way forward and not be picky on critisism.

we are all professional adults and need to act in a manner that needs to show our professionalism.

Mike

I totally agree with you.

But tell me this, if you continually poke a dog with a sharp stick would you be surprised if it suddenly bit you?

I am afraid I have complained to the moderators on more than one occasion about Charlie’s racist and offensive behaviour and still he is allowed to poke me with a sharp stick.

I am proud of my country (although our recent governments are trying my patience), I love the richness of our language. I find it difficult to stand by, ’all that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing…’ and let some moron besmirch my country and language.

Love and peace (until the next time)...

David

Mike,

I profess my innocence. But as the saying goes, ignorance of the law exempt no one. Am I going to be executed or terminated?

Now that I’m enligthen so

I will abide with the norm in our forum.

I will not use complete capital letters to send my message accross.

Cheers,
Happy Planning and Scheduling

Hi Charleston

The convention in internet chatrooms and blogs is that CAPITAL LETTERS indicate a raised voice.

A complete message in CAPITALS indicates shouting and is mostly discouraged.

I know that you can put points across fluently and cogently when you want to - so why not keep to that format.

Best regards

Mike Testro

Hello Chris,

You conclusion that I’m shouting is borne by your misconception.

If I print in capital letter, then, you conclude that I’m shouting.

WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CAPITAL LETTERS AND SHOUTING.

DID YOU HEAR ME SHOUTING WHEN I USED CAPITAL LETTERS. Is this the way english writing are to be interpreted. My teacher in English did not tell me that writing in capital letters is tantamount to shouting.

or as my favorite thesis which i really hate to use now in 2009 but force me to use: IS THIS THE INTERPRETATION for idiotic xxxxxx ENGLISH yyyyyyy ???? The pretenders masters in the use of the english language.

Please enlighthen the PP community.

Cheers,
Happy Planning and Scheduling

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ROAD.

WASH OUT BY FLASH FLOOD.

IT IS ALREADY 6 SIX DAYS FROM NEW YEAR AND WE DONT HAVE ANY FRESH IDEAS FOR 2009.

Cheers,
Happy Planning and Scheduling

The original post was:
"...A 20 minute discussion ensued where more questions than answers appeared to be raised. At the end of the debate, just about everyone agreed that a Discussion Forum Group be setup whereby the PP community could discuss the issues at hand.

Issues raised and discussed were such as....

(1) Do we need to be recognised / certified / accredited or graded?

(2) Do we need a professional body such as APM or PMI to do this, or should, or could we, organise and accredit ourselves?

(3) Irrespective of how such certification or accreditation is carried out, what Core Competences / Skills should be recognised and how could we grade such skills?

(4) How can we assure the market / employers that such accreditation is unbiased and indeed accurate?

The PP Team hope that this is the beginning of something new and exciting for us planners!!
"

AND I WOULD PROPOSE THAT WE WILL GET ACCREDITATION THROUGH OUR OWN PP EFFORT, OUR OWN PP VALUES AS PLANNING AND SCHEDULING ENGINEERS SOMETIMES CALLED PLANNERS AND SCHEDULERS (if you happen to be not an engineer but practicing planning and scheduling).

A good planner’s real test is scheduling a task that seem is imposible to build. He gets idea from the expert and how much the client is willing to spend. On the process he will get lots of criticism from the very team that he is working with. At the end of the day, he has proven he can do it and he got rewarded.

I can see many potentials in formalizing the body to govern the planning planet and its members. It will only happen at a certain cost. Let’s continue finding a way how it could be done.

Cheers to all..

Toby

You have more stamina than I.

I can hear the cheers when I say that i am no longer going to post on this thread. Why bother - there sems to be such amount of negative feeling without a scintilla of positive thought.

I say sod ’em. If they don’t want to come to our party then why bother with them. At least the CIOB is doing something.

I am beginning to wonder if there is any correleation between the number of post and the stupidity/lack of awareness of the poster (hello Charlie).

Rant #3 over

David

Dear All

One small point on this.

The CIOB recognises that it may not be the best long term vehicle through which to accredit planners and schedulers, and that is why Gary France from the PEO is involved. The initial thoughts were that they might be the more suitable (through IPEO, MPEO, FPEO etc).

Is it not perhaps better for us all to pull in the same direction now with the CIOB to get the guide completed, and then argue about the better long term vehicle further down the line?

Regards

Toby

Hi folks,

Se is absolutely right. Before any decision is made concerning the direction to take we need to know what it is that people want. Not only that we need to know what they don’t want, after all it’s no good developing an organisation that no-one wants to be part of.

As for Charlie pointing out that Planning Planet is free, he is absolutely correct. But the only reason it is free is because of the efforts of a small group of dedicated individuals who work hard and for free to keep it that way. If, however, a professional organisation with recognised certification or accreditation is formed (see PP Admin post#1) it won’t be free.

There is a great deal of expense in running a professional organisation, and it won’t be covered by the revenue from a few ads by Google. An Annual membership fee will be a necessity, this alone, means finding out what people want and what they don’t want just as Se pointed out.

Chris Oggham

I agree that we have to move on with the accreditation using our unique planning planet brand.

The essence of planning planet brand is FREE, free membership irrespective of religious belief, affiliation to other planning organization. It is not discriminatory to newbie planners, to wedding planners, to keyboard planners, to pretenders to the throne of planning expers, to the real professional planners, etc.

FREE free for anyone to log in,
FREE freedom to share ideas with anyone especially the real profesional planners,
FREE to access Planning Planet materials.

ALSO ME.

Please dont misunderstand me.

In my first salvo, I said

WOW:

Planning Planet Planning and Scheduling Professional.

I really wanted us to be a planning brand or some sort of planning ambasador of goodwill,

NOT THE PLANNERS LIKE PEO, CIOB, PMI, APMI, etc.. or any of their clones

(I love the PSP of AACE), but I prefer our very own PLANNING PLANET BRAND.

Cheers and happy,
planning and scheduling

Charlie

Dear All,

Nice sharing from everyone.

Say we finally agreed on something, how is the structure would be?

We are talking global while I understand the planning practices are not 100% the same from the 2 sides of the globe.

Cheers..

David,

Admirably concise and superbly targeted. However, in mitigation, (yes I know I must have had a bang on the head if I’m defending Charlie), in a brainstorming process like this even nay-sayers and bullsh1t merchants have a part to play, so for once Charlie may be fulfilling a useful function.

Chris

The fundamental glich if we follow CIOB is that we lost that Planning Planet Brand.

We will becomes imitators

NO ONE WILL RESPECT US because we will be clone.

And I dont want to be a clone of CIOB.

There must be a solution somewhere considering our brilliant planning minds.

It may take time , 6 months, 1 year, 2 years ...

In the meantime, let the discussions, debate, brainstorming,

GOES ON AND ON

Cheers,
Charlie

I must say I am amazed that this thread has not seen a overall thumbs up for the intiative the CIOB has embarked upon.

After I spoke at the PP conference in Reading, I had a large number of people contact me to see how they could become involved and the feedback was very positive. This thread is entieled "The Road to Recognition", and yet when. Framework is put forward to assist in the process it is not fully welcomed.

I would suggest that everyone read the CIOB research and goals of the initiative and then comment to improve upon on it not dismiss it from the outset.

I believe that the road to recognition is not cheap. If it comes from the UK then it means tons of sterling pounds.

And going global? A few questions might be asked:

1. How simple it is?
2. How long will it take?
3. How much will an aspiring member is supposed to spend in acquiring such certification?
4. How many serious and experienced Planners exist or alive?
5. How to attract and convince aspiring Planners?
6. What is the minimum level of education or experience (minimum and standard requirement) required to be considered for membership?
7. Language to be used (only English)?
8. Is personal attendance necessary, or can this be done on web?
9. Where’s my bin???

THE VERY ESSENCE OF PLANNING IS TO PLAN FOR THE BETTER. IF YOU GUYS ARE NOW DOING THAT PLANNING ACCREDITATION TASK, I MAY SAY THAT ITS LEAST EXPECTED OUTCOME WOULD BE FOR THE GOOD AND BETTERMENT OF OUR PLANNING PROFESSION.

BY NATURE, TRULY CHANGE IS MOST OFTEN CRITICIZED AND RESISTED. BUT, WITHOUT THAT CRITICISM AND RESISTANCE, ONE MAY NOT FULLY FIND A NEAR PERFECT APPROACH AND SOLUTION TO THE TASK. IN A WAY, CRITICISM AND RESISTANCE MAKES THINGS EVEN MORE BETTER.

MOVE ON GUYS. I AM ONE OF THOSE WHO ANXIOUSLY WAITS FOR ITS GOOD RESULT. THANK YOU.

Charlie…

“Majority of Planning Planet members comes from UK influence line of thinking (basically, former colonies of the once mighty British Empire, now member of the Commonwealth Countries).
But, the once upon a time is not really the best thinking in the planning universe.”

I thought you had passed your racist, nationalistic, ‘chip on your shoulder’ phase - but it seems not.

Whilst you seem to love bitching about the status quo you never seem to do anything about it. If you think the UK influence is not really the best thinking in the planning universe why don’t you do something about it. My opinion is that cream will rise to the top so, who ever you think is the current ‘best thinking in the planning universe’, will no doubt show their hand eventually, be it the US, China or any other established or emerging nation.

As Toby has pointed out a number of times, a few people have bothered to do something, and they just happen to be UK centric (although Keith Pickavance is based in Hong Kong). They have identified problems in the UK Construction Industry in particular and are now trying to do something about it. If you are not happy with the way things are going, well why not you do something about it? Let’s say you start by doing some fundamental research into the state of planning and programming in the UAE or any other part of the world that you feel more comfortable with other than the once mighty British Empire.

No matter how many times I scour the Internet or the resources of the British Library I have yet to find any serious research, publication or original thought emanating from the great mind of Charleston-Joseph Orbe. Maybe if you contributed a little more to the development of our discipline then maybe it would be in a better state (but somehow I doubt it). I am passionate about planning so I got off my fat arse and volunteered to assist in the initiative Toby talks about - why haven’t you?

Regards

David

In our quest for regocnition and accreditation, we have to look back to our humble beginning and trace how we in planning planet becomes a dynamic, responsive, intellectual, all the best adjectives that we can describe ourselves and of course sometimes crazy, hilarious, fighters of planning ideas.

What I’m trying to say is that Planning Planet is a brand, a very unique brand, that differentiates us from other planning organization.

and it is preferable for this PLANNING PLANET BRAND will remain forever, as what our founding fathers (PP admin) have originally in mind.

If we loss this PLANNING PLANET BRAND, then we will be like the other planning organization, the pretenders to have the absolute representation of planners, in papers, but not in reality.

I have seen the website of AACE, and they do have a substantial amount of information, I believe, which is similar maybe the same, as what is being proposed here. Is there a difference? Just asking.

Would it be more beneficial if the 2 organizations collaborate on this?

We do need to be accredited and recognize as Planning and scheduling professional.

What do I have in mind??

Planning Planet Professional Planner and Scheduler.

WOW

What will be the difference with AACE Accredited Planning and Scheduling Professional???

I still don’t understand what is fundamentally different about what is being proposed here and what other organisations already do. E.g. PMI.

"what existing certification bodies specifically give a qualification or accreditation in planning / scheduling?"

I would imagine the PMI would be mortified that you had not considered a PMP to fit this definition.

I am not suggesting that a PMP is the best possible qualification for a project manager. I am asking what is fundamentally different about this proposal and (for example) a PMP?

But Mike...

I guess you, and your GCE ’O’ level carpentry is something that most of us haven’t got - does that make you (and it) special???

Rod and all

As a member of the APM and an interest in the Planning and Programming SIG (and I have a great respect for many of the active members of the SIG). have you read their recent publication ‘Introduction to Project Planning’?

To be frank, I read the ‘book’ in about 15 minutes and have never read such an anodyne jargon-laden tome in all my life. With respect, if this is the best the APM can come up with (the Project Planning introduction has had a gestation period longer than an elephant) then I don’t think the APM is the ideal organisation for planners to be affiliated with. Fingers-crossed that the CIOB initiative bears more fruit.

Whilst the Planning Engineer’s Organisation has had a bit of a static period of late it is about the only place where there are some decent, topical and serious papers on planning and programming. Yes, the PEO is only two or three years old but if more of us get behind it, it could well become our natural home. The entry criteria, I think, are pretty fair too. As has been said on Planning Planet many times before passing exams and being able to drive software does not make you a good or competent planner and a global organisation cannot survive or grow with the need for face-to-face interviews.

And taking up what Toby says, the good universities in the UK do already offer planning modules as part of, say, their construction management courses. Our problem is to get those people into specialist planning and programming careers and not to loose them in to general project management and so on.

Regards

David

Toby,

I think that having a detailed CIOB specific planning standard that integrates contractually is a great idea.

However, having a CIOB accredited course, although global, will only hold any weight within the construction and possibly engineering sectors.

I think what is needed is a ’project control’ accreditation that (1) is universally recognized as guaranteeing the standard of the individual that holds membership and (2) can be used as a key reference document for all industries.

If a detailed standard was created by bodies such as the APM/PMI and recognized globally, then a supporting CIOB standard could be put in place to integrate planning best practice into construction contracts and indeed many other sectors.

In addition, i think that the planning community from the construction / delay sectors would play a key role if such a direction was taken, as from my experience there are still some sectors that are lagging behind in project controls.

How is this different to existing certification bodies? Or is this because you want to have something UK centric?

As a Director and Trustee of APM, can I suggest you get closer to the APM Planning Special Interest Group?
As APM will (hopefully) get it’s Royal Charter next year, an affiliation to a Chartered body will do you no harm at all.
Now is the time to structure what you think a Planning qualification could look like - you have a blank canvas.

Planning Planet becoming serious? I think you need to re-baseline everything and consider some significant things like:

1. How does it feel to be called Planning Planet Certified Planner? (PP Admin, you need to change your image, you need to wear tie from now on! or you’ll lose some serious members - like me!).

2. face-to-face interview, and going global? (this is going to be Big Time! - how much is the membership fee by the way? is there a free tea or coffee?).

3. how about the free forum? (oh i really love this one!), i hope it remains free!

4. Are you going to put the PP Headquarters in China?

anyway, Congratulations! despite the global crisis, Planning Planet is becoming an institution (a serious one hopefully!)....where’s the bin?

Hi there,

I missed all of this as I was out of the country on a job so taking each of the questions in turn.

(1) Do we need to be recognised / certified / accredited or graded?

I’m assuming that you mean a professional qualification like a membership of the Chartered Management Institute. Why not, it can only increase the credibility of planners, schedulers and project controls professionals. Different grades of membership according to qualifications and experience is fairly standard. Associate Member, Member, Fellow and if you want to get really posh Companion.

At the same time, though, you have to keep entry criteria fairly tight. Where someone has a reconised degree in Project Planning or something similar, let them have a basic membership. But at the same time don’t debar the person with no formal qualifications who has been doing the job for twenty years. Have your own exams for membership grades, maybe along the lines of PRINCE2 qualifications where you start off with the foundation qualification then move on to practitioner (the equivalent of Associate Member and Member maybe?)

Further progression through achievements, experience, further qualifications (professional, academic?)

(2) Do we need a professional body such as APM or PMI to do this, or should, or could we, organise and accredit ourselves?

It will need to be a professional body, with professional standards, but whether you organise a new one from scratch or tie in with an existing related professional body, I suppose would need a poll of the members. Asking what is probably a really daft question, don’t we already have such a body? The Planning Engineers Organisation or maybe that is a little bit too oriented towards planning without due emphasis on the other skills mentioned in your post.

(3) Irrespective of how such certification or accreditation is carried out, what Core Competences / Skills should be recognised and how could we grade such skills?

Possibly the first run at this would be to poll the members and find out what they see as their key skills. From this it should be possible to build the ideal skill sets for planners, schedulers and project controls professionals. The next bit is the really tricky bit, you need a team of highly skilled, highly qualified Planning Planet members in the various disciplines to map the skills from the skill sets to the different grades of membership. It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort.

(4) How can we assure the market / employers that such accreditation is unbiased and indeed accurate?

There isn’t any quick or certain way of doing this. What it needs, unfortunately, is years of employers finding that members of the Planning Planet affiliated professional body are very good at their jobs. Eventually this will lead to confidence that any member of this professional body will be able to do the job, and thus confidence in the accreditation and the professional body responsible. But it isn’t going to happen quickly, if you take a look at a brief history of the Chartered Management Institute, you’ll see what I mean.

Sorry this has gone on a bit but my excuse is I’m on sick leave fo another couple of weeks, and I’ve got time on my hands. If you think that this post is more trouble than it’s worth bin it.

Regards

Chris Oggham