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Planners -v- Schedulers -v- Keyboard Jockeys

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Andy Petkus
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Like quite a few of you out there, I’ve been doing this planning ’thing’ for a great numbers of years. Those who started off with I&J and the Primvera DOS versions will know what I’m talking about and when.

I know that a tremendous number of people have done these Primavera courses and walked out at the end of the day and call themselves planning engineers and don’t get me wrong, I take my hat off to them all, bless ’em!

However, being self employed and doing consulting, I’m very frequently taken on to sort out programme problems that a compnay’s project is having and usually find that the ’planner’ has not the experience to construct a realistic programme or it doesn’t match the project requirements, etc, etc, This is predominent when insufficient money has been allocted in the project budget for these services.

Over the last say, 5 to 10 years, I’ve come across a clear separation between planning engineers and schedulers. I’ve defined this as, and this is very basic,

A planning engineer will look ahead from today’s date and make the necessary people aware of potential problems and he will also work back from the end date to also make the people aware of needs to be done in order to complete the project on time.

A Scheduler, I’ve found, will manipulate a programme’s logic realtively any-old-how to show the dates as given to him/her by the project team, usually to iclude the results for the up and coming weekly/monthlyt report(s). There is very little or no long term lookahead analysis done to argument with the given dates.

A ’Keyboard Jockey’ needs no further explanation, does it?

The point I’m trying to make here, is that we ’senior’ or ’old lags’ need to take the young and inexperienced planning engineers under our wings to bring them on in the ’real world’ of planning. Yes,I know that we say ’we don’t time for this’ but remember, when we shuffle off into the sunset, these younger people have to take over where we left off.

Another point I want to make is, that we all must remember that Primavera, MSProject and all these other softwares are only a tool, they do not and cannot teach people to become planning engineers, only years of experience and cunning can do this.

I would welcome your views and opinions.

Cheers and don’t forget "Plan the Work, Now Work the Plan"

Replies

Raphael M. Dua
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Raviraj
I do not think that it is, as this is new programme that has been started. if you have done PMP, which you seem to have paid a low price to what I had to pay. Must be good to be in the East, :-)

I will check for you

By the way I do not think that using the forum for what is really a private discussion is a good thing.
You have my personal e-mail, please use that

Raf
Raviraj Bhedase
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Thanks Raf for the link,

But I believe, its exactly similar to PSP. No change and will cost you USD 520 , which is more than what I paid for PMP last year.
Raphael M. Dua
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Raviraj

The information is on the PMICOS page, however

http://www.pmicos.org/PMI-SPHandbook0308.pdf

Raf
Raviraj Bhedase
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Raf,

The link u have shown is for PSP professional, which I believe is already in existence.

What @ the new credential system handbook. Plz share the link.

Cheers,

Raviraj, PMP
Charleston-Joseph...
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So after all the bullshitting and hitting below the belt,
The message is to take this new PMI certification regarding planning. It would be better if PMI will focus on PMP.

PMP certification is only a piece of paper, that cost an individual a sum of money (investment) hoping that by this certification, their investment will get them higher salary.

PMP certification per se will not ensure project success.

WHY????

It will take you years to know.

Raphael M. Dua
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Raviraj

Sorry about I just copied the link from the PMICOS page
Try this one

https://www.aacei.org/certification/PSP/PSPapplic.shtml


Raf
Raviraj Bhedase
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Raf,

Link is missing. Will u plz post it again.

Cheers,

Ravi
Raphael M. Dua
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Dear All

As I said in my previous post the PMI has announced a new project scheduling credential that will be brought to the market soon.

PMI will be launching this new credential in the second quarter of 2008. The pilot will be conducted between May 30th and July 31st 2008. The first 100 candidates to sit for the exam will receive 50% off the price of the exam and will be entered into one of the four regional drawings for a chance to win $1,000. You can find a link to the handbook here.

For information on how to become a pilot participant contact certquestions@pmi.org

I guess this should satisfy those amongst you who yearn for a qualification.
Well my PMI colleagues and I have worked hard to bring this to you so now it is your turn.

Raf

Raphael M. Dua
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Dear All
I do not recall ever proposing to process a Critical Path manually, but on the other hand if you do not know the basics and can do the calculations manually you have a least a good chance of spotting some of the rather nasty calendar errors that both Primavera and MS Project create, even tho the arithmentic is correct the answer isn’t.

I have always used software, and have been writng various computer packages for both mainframes and PC’s since 1958. Age has nothing to with it. Knowledge is what counts and how we use that knowledge to provide our clients with the very best and correct answer.

The US government has become rather tired with the number of failed projects and is now creating legisltion forcing us to be accurate. Have a look at the new Warner Act 2007 HR5122, which insists that Cost Estimaes will be accurate and that those who provide cost estimates will be properly trained.
There will no doubt be plenty of courses now developed for that aspect of Planning and Scheduling.

Personnally I am a long time member of the PMI (one advantage of AGE)and yet we only have approximately 1700 members in the College of Scheduling.

So if you want to make a positive contribution to the Planning and Scheduling world, come and join us.

The PMICOS is right in the middle of developing a new credential for P&S. It will be called PSP. If you join the College you may get an early peek and maybe add some of your own hard gained knowledge.

Also the ISO organisation has just commenced the development of a Project Management standard. Over 22 countries are taking part and each countries Standards organisation is desparately looking for knowledgable project folk to help create tht standard. Why don’t you join, it is FREE, will only cost you time, which you will be able to plan for as you are all P&S

By the way any P&S who runs schedules of greater 1000 to 1500 tasks is kidding and killing themselves.

There are plenty of techniques to run big projects without vast numbers of tasks. But that is another story

By the way it is either Raphael or Raf

Raf
Chris Oggham
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Hi Guys,

I’ve been away for a couple of days, and it looks as if I missed out on the action. Once again it has been graphically demonstrated that Charlie doesn’t bother reading a post before making his reply. Although I suppose that should be replies, since once he had started he didn’t seem to be able to stop.

Dieter and Anthony have answered more than effectively in posts #95 and #96, so I’m not going to bother. All I ask, Charlie, is that you read posts before posting your reply, failure to do so merely makes you look foolish and incompetant.

Chris Oggham
Dieter Wambach
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Hi
Why do we need new standards? We have PMI, Prince2, ipma, AACE, ... Details are different, of course but these standards don’t contradict each other. So the wheel exists, why there should be a need to invent it a second time.
The problem is more due to project managers who just need a planner and scheduler because a "stupid" customer - to their opinion - wants to see a schedule. This PM never would ask for quality. Customers and managers who just have a look at a nice PDF or Powerpoint and then know everything. If they pay a fortune for a so-called planner who after a 3-days crash course of Primavera (or MSP, or Open Plan....) calls himself planner or scheduler, it’s their fault, it’s their money.
In my humble opinion in this forum in general we have quite a good level of discussion. So don’t waste time for one more standard.
Regards
Dieter
Andy Petkus
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Guys, guys, don’t make it personal, everybody’s entitled to their opinions. That we have differences is very healthy, but the whole issue is to come up with a consensus that do we, (all), need to have a system of standards by which our proficencies can be measured against - Yes or No?

If it’s yes, then what are we, (all), going to do about it? I don’t just mean locally, but globally.

If it’s no, then are we, (all), just going to bumble along and hope that a) project managers will be happy with our individual proficiency and experience or b) are our more experienced planning engineers going to put up with so-called planning engineer colleagues who are in fact jockeys who still have to be trained, but get the same money.

Let’s have a poll people, perhaps Planning Planet could maybe set something up on the website???? Please Mr. Kind Webmaster
Anthony Peters
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Charly,

You seem to be putting quite a few posts on this forum, which means you are either unemployed or not devoting your time fully to the project managers that need your assistance. If it is indeed the latter, then crack on and stop wasting time writing endless amounts about the same point!
Dieter Wambach
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Hi Charly
Who is able to read, in general has an advantage. Mr. Raphael Dua wrote: "..using a piece of software does not make you a Planner and or a Scheduler...". He didn’t vote for no use of a software. As far as I know he is even the author of a package. In addition he is one of the real experts in planning and scheduling and I’m proud to have the chance to learn from him - as from others in this forum as well.
For a scheduler it is essential to know how to use scheduling software. But the sequence must be:
First learn planning and scheduling and
Second learn the software.
Otherwise you have absolutely no chance to understand how it works and to take conclusions of its results.
Regards from Germany
Dieter
Charleston-Joseph...
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Mr. Raph

We will raise the ANti here.

How will the forensic schedule analyst perform his job using manual evaluation of CPM of 5,000+ activiites.

A very simple case is a CPM schedule with a span of two years. A very simple methodology is using contemporaneous as is approach. Tell me How you will do manually the periodic evaluation 24 numbers of CPM schedule place in A1 or A0 size cross section paper. How will you compute the longest path, how will you superimpose the current and the target. Of course manually,

BUT BUT how long will you finish this exercise and come up with a forensic schedule report?????? How many resource will it take you????

Contemporaneous approach in forensic schedule analysis is peanuts. What if you will use Additive Modelling-Multi base models??????

Mr. Raph can you make a reply????

otherwise, you basic argument that planning software will not make a planning and scheduling engineer is only good for you, our forefather

this is the problem with our forefathers, they never appreciate the new toys of their children.

Charleston-Joseph...
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Mr. Raph,

That is only the tip of the iceberge.

I understand your sentimentally of the whole episode as you watch how planners evolve into suave computer gick compared to our forefather (I hope you dont belong to our forefather) struggle to ensure the i node and the j node are really logicall and how we invent dummy activities to ensure the i-j node follows the basic principle. Of course we have to look forward in such a way that the j node is always greater than the i node. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

But this is only being emotionally. We have to be objective and that means:

STOP UNDERMINING THE NEWBIES IN THE EVENT THEY TEND TO PLAY around as in KEYBOARD JOCKEYS.

The good old days is always GOOD OLD DAYS. I dont see any point to be sentimental about it.

There is always a brigther tomorrow with planning software as a must for the new generation of planning scheduling engineers.



Charleston-Joseph...
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and TODAY AND TOMORROW

Mr Raph

means: A planning and scheduling engineer (planner/scheduler) should be proficient in the basic of planning software (Primavera my choice).

Why is this so??????

Can you imagine the work involved in preparing manual CPM schdule with 5,000++ activities using cross section paper A1 or A0 size papers. How about the manual computations???? How long will it take a planning engineer to do it??????

This is only preparation of baseline schedule. How about the evaluation of the baseline schedule?????

What if there are lots of comments and changes in the baseline schedule, then you will re do again the whole proccess manually??????

Charleston-Joseph...
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Dear Raph

This statement is not realistic in the present context of planning and scheduling refering to pretigious projects, mixed developments involving towers, sckycrappers, etc.

"... the fact that using a piece of software does not make you a Planner and or a Scheduler"

Planning software skills is a must in this present world we are in. And you will only be called a planning and scheduling engineer (planner or scheduler) if you know how to handle planning software (Primavera: the best choice, MS Project for mickey mouse and donald duck, others for those who are trying hard ...)

Believe me Raph, you exposition belongs to the "GOOD OLD DAYS". But what matter most is TODAY AND TOMORROW.

Cheers,



Raphael M. Dua
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Dear Charleston-Joseph

I hear your standard cry of poor third world v rich First worlds

Now you will have seen my postings - I don’t belong to either of those worlds.

I am Italian, which generally means I have to put up with Mafia jokes from all and sundry.

But first and foremost is that I am a professionally qualified person and I am a Planning and Scheduling Engineer

So why don’t we keep to them subject which was the fact that using a piece of software does not make you a Planner and or a Scheduler

There will be a place for a Keyboard Jockey, who I hope by patient training will grow into be a first class P & S.

So can we stop all this childiness. It has nothing to do with where you come from.

That is my very Senior view
Raf

Charleston-Joseph...
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THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH, ALA JAMES BOND 007.

Some nationalities are really pampered and pompous ass while some nationalities are struggling to be at par with superior nationanlities (USA and UK).

I belong to third world country and I did struggle to attain ......


Andy the fundamental problem with internaitonally recognize blah blah blah is that the USA of A and the UK will never agree on what to agree so at the end they agree to disagree.

So what more if the francophine, the russian, the chinese, the japanes, the iranians, etc. etc. will get involved with thie internationally recognize so and so .....

It will not happened.

So, knowing this reality, it is better to stick with the fundamentals, the reasonable planning and scheduling process, anything that is simple, explainable, understandable, logical and acceptable.

Sensei,
Successful Project Management Consultant

Andy Petkus
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David and Anthony,

I absolutely agree with you both on your strategies, I’ve done the same thing many times over the years and told bosses to shove it if I don’t get cooperation and ’real’ information.

But,isn’t what you both are saying the crux of the matter, in that if there is an internationally recognised, let’s say,qualification which would allow us to go to a new position and give your new boss ’your’ strategy for providing planning services without having to rely on the ’sink or swim’ method.

I reckon that if we had this, we would then have the reinforcement to support your strategy and advising your new boss that he has the choice to sink or swim rather than you!

Sure, the pitfall here is that he might not like what you’re saying - so what! would want to work for such a clown anyway?

Andy
Anthony Peters
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David,

I agree and this is precisely the strategy I am taking. I am spending as much time on site as possible, learning from the guys on the ground in relation to the existing programmes what works and what doesn’t. I find this more beneficial than working removed in an office learning from planners who are barely on site.
David Morin
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First a reply to John. \/

No John, have not tried that software. When you invest a few thousand dollars in a piece of software,you tend to stick with it for a while. and....dont get me started on the software vendors...I think I saw Ron Winter chime in on what thats all about.

Now Anthony. You make a very very important point. I do not know much about the rail industry, but I do know a bit about the construction industry. It is a "sink or swim" environment sorry to say. In order to get what you need you have to DEMAND IT! Now that does not mean demanding being sent somewhere else to learn from some overpriced preprogrammed training seminar. What it means is, you demand time from your superiors to show you what you feel you need to learn. This means you need to develop specific questions you need answers to on based upon your observations and absorptions, so far, then ask those individuals, whose knowledge you respect the most, to answer those questions. Ask allot of questions, good questions and seemingly stupid questions, even if it means embarrassment. When you get the "I dont have time" BS from them, use the same argument you have made on this thread with them. MAKE THEM FEEL THE GUILT!!!!!!!!!

You will be surprised how often this will work and it will pay off for you in the long run. If it does not work, then find a better boss. Its really that simple.
Anthony Peters
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Just thought Id add some fuel to the fire.
I have been in planning for just over a year and am a youngster in career terms (30yrs). I have read alot of threads from senior planners who are highlighting the lack of skills from new planners coming in to the marketplace. However, junior planners cannot be entirely blamed. I feel that the training In the industry (especially by the senior planners working alongside junior planners) is not good enough. I started in Rail, and was sent on a P3e course and told to get on with it - to produce reports and layouts etc. The software is just the tool, planning principles and disiplines are what needs to be taught, and some senior planners are unwilling to share there knowledge. I have since left and joined construction, where again I am in a position where I am expected to teach myself. I am keen to get on and be the best I can be, but in order for this industry to keep growing and be passed on to the next generation, training needs to be standardised and improved dramatically.
John Cornish
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Thanks David,

Have you tried Micro Planner X-Pert for your forensic work.
It has Activity on Arrow (ADM), which in my opinion is better at visualizing the PERT Diagram, especially when showing it to non project managers?

Also the EV reports are as accurate as any excel spreadsheets.

regards
John
David Morin
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John:

I am a P3 proponent.

Prefered scheduling methodology CPM/PDM

Preferred analysis type TIME IMPACT ANALYSIS

Secondary analysis type AS PLANNED PLUS IMPACT ANALYSIS
(only to defend against liquidated damage assessments)

I wrote a much longer response but the site did not post it and brought me back to the log in screen.............
John Cornish
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David,

Thank you for your endorsements.

We are singing from the same hymn sheets as we say here in Europe, where the history comes from.

I would be interested to hear which planning tools you use for your forensic work. Perhaps you would email me privately.

Thanks
David Morin
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John:

I just registered on this website today and noticed your post on this thread.

You hit the nail on the head regarding OBS being key in preparing a usable/functional schedule.

In having presented many schedule development and maintenance seminars over the years. I always ask the audience the question. "What is the first thing you do with a pizza pie when it comes out of the oven?" Slice it up!, before delving into discussion on determining and developing the organizational structure of the schedule.

And with this comes schedule purpose, a schedule suited to whose use and for what?

If the answer ranges from Executive level sumarization to Field level short term planing an resource utilization, a little more time spent on design of the organizational structure required to satisfy an "all user" scenario will produce a more usable and navigable scheduling tool than one that is "patched" together as the project progresses.

John Cornish
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Hi Raf and Andy,

A fascinating read through all these threads going back several months.

I’m based here in the UK with Micro Planning International Ltd and fully understand the need for simple training on the fundamentals of project management. We need to equip PMs to manage the four project phases of conception, evaluation, operations and hand-over/close-off.
Equally importantly, the PM has the overall responsibility for risk management in order to not just deliver the project but also the "benefits" of the project.

So if the highly paid professional PM is doing all that, we cant afford to have him planning and scheduling. That is a different role, certainly for major projects in the larger and often International corporations.

The key part of good planning, (to me) is the organisational breakdown structure (OBS). The planner/scheduler needs to organise the various sub-projects and sub-sub-projects so that the PERT Diagrams and Critical Paths are viewable at the lowest level of a project’s organisation where "ownership", control and accountability are placed.

This approach is good for visibility, good for accountability and will lead to better outcomes for the project.

To often planners and schedulers are constrained in their actual planning by the tools they are told to use.

This should not be the case.

The professional planner/schedule should be taught his art/craft and also introduced to the range of planning tools and then given training on which is the best tool for his current project.

Would you say to your gardener mow my lawn and here’s a pair of shears I want you to use. No. because that would be a very expensive lawn care session.

Project Managers also need to understand the cost of using planning tools, not just license costs but, efficiencies and effectiveness of their use in other words to estimate what is this planning tool costing me in terms of planning engineers time, lost opportunity costs, etc., etc.

Planning Engineers also need training to use the main project’s PERT Diagram with added Risk Milestones that show when a specific risk has passed (expired) and the balance of risks ahead in the project.

And the Planning Engineer needs to create a specific sub-project for the actions for preventing risk straight from the Risk Management Plan. Then this progressive risk action plan is kept up-to-date and that contingency monies allocated to expired risks can be re-assigned for other business purposes.

This approach means that Risk Management is kept alive, controlled and monitored along with the progress of the project. Rather that having a Risk Management Plan sitting on a shelf and gathering dust.


So Andy, you are absolutely right to say, and as endorsed by Raf, that the project engineer is crucial for the success of any project and that role needs to gain professional recognition.

Thanks for listening and very happy to receive further communication either here or by private email.

John
Raphael M. Dua
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Andy

At last some cool calm collected thoughts. Watching this thread emerge over the past few months has just been amazing. Never seen such poor manners, and so many missing the point. I have refrained from responding as most postings have been juvenile and not very professional. Professional, something you all want, but patently lack the disciple to achieve.

As probably the Grandfather of Planners, Schedulers and Cost control Engineers, in Asia Pacific if not the World; I have been doing this stuff since Kelly & Walker back in 1956, which by my reckoning is now 52 years. If you have to ask who Kelly and Walker were, you don’t deserve to call yourself a planner and scheduler

I have written (with others) my own software, never trusted other peoples mathematics, My colleagues and I only went for a 100% answer, not "nearly got there" ; "Nearly achieved the budget".

That was the way we were trained, which of course was on the job, cos back then that was all there was. Veracity and Accuracy was drummed into us

Now there is a Plethora of Good Planning and Scheduling information, plenty of PM software (but only to do the hard yakka, it will not PLAN for you) expert people, planners, groups etc.exist in many countries.

It is obvious that using PM software enables a person to learn from the vendor’s manual some rudimentary Planning and Scheduling. But it takes practice, asking Senior Colleagues for help etc


In UK the PEO is actually extremely good and Gary Francis is doing a great job in trying to produce standards.

"Andy" the PMI is now doing what you want and that is an accreditation for Schedulers and Planners. It will be called PSP and you will have to work for it as ones does for a PMP

As I am intimately involved with this process I am not permitted by the rules of the process of creating PMI credentials to go into too much detail until it is released

Why not join the PMICOS, it costs a few $US and provides you with a great resource of very knowledgable professional Planners and Schedulers who want to help you get better at planning (not whinging !)

I have offered my basic CPM manual "Free" to those who want a copy and requested that if you wanted a copy, e-mail me privately. Over two thirds who did request it asked on line in the forum and not as instructed. Makes you wonder how they cope with Project Scope, Planning Information, Scheduling processes what do we do when you can’t that right.

I taught Planning and Scheduling for years at University of Melbourne and other colleagues also did the same at other Australian uni’s. In New Zealand the University of Technology in Auckland taught Planning and Scheduling.

So uni training is around and some of those folk who teach it are now looking at getting involved in the promulgation of P & S via the PMI College of Scheduling.

If people are interested I still have my basic teaching manuals, but it is structured around Micro Planner X-Pert for Windows, but if you would like a copy e-mail me raf@microplanning.com.au

Well that’s my bit for the week, have to go and plan a Mine

Raf
Andy Petkus
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Hi David,

I agree, I’ve been ’sniffing’ around the PEO website for some time now and although, I admit, I haven’t gotten involved with it all, I admire for it’s trying to do and of best of luck to all who participate.

But, and its a big but,I still maintain that somebody somehwere needs to kick things off and raise an internationally accepted set of standards that potential planning engineers can be measured against, or become qualified schedulers or keyboard jockeys if they can’t measure up to these standards.

I’m dead against recruitment of people who say they are planning engineers when in fact all they’ve done is a basic introductory P3 course, for example, then they get a ’paper’ - I won’t call it a certificate - that says they are entitled to call themselves planning engineers, just incredible!

How many times have us ’old lags’ have had to rewrite programmes, etc, because a project has taken on board one of these new ’planning engineers’ only to find that they’ve stuffed things up due to a simple lack of real understanding and experience.

I really, really think that before us ’old lags’ shuffle off this mortal coil, we need to leave a legacy for the young ’uns. What better way than to set a global set of standards upon which project managers can insist on that their potential candidates must meet as a minimum.

Phew! rabbitting on done for the day

Andy

David Bordoli
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Andy

I don’t speak on Behalf of the Planning Engineer’s Organisation but I do talk to gary every now and again and I know he is as concerned as we all seem to be about qualifications, or tests of compitence, for planners.

Part of the development of the PEO will include such things, last we spoke he was trying to get some distance learning stuff up and running so as not to discriminate (Hi Charlie) against those that are not based, say, in the UK or near to centres of learning.

When I see him again I’ll mention it and see what, if any, progress has been made. i do know that he has an awful lot on his plate at the moment so don’t expect instantaneoyus results.
Andy Petkus
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As the ’Goofy’who started this topic last year you guys are touching on something I’ve been advocating for a number of years. Why cannot somebody somwhere in all of these supposedly erudite centres of learning as college/university level, come up with a recognisable set of increasing proficiency standards and qualifications that could be done at the vast number of say, distance learning centres around the world?

Of course, I suspect that they are saying there’s not enough money in it for them to set up or not enough candidates. My argument would be simple - just have a read at all the posts here and they’ll quickly recognise that an internationally recognised standard is needed.

I mean, look at all the academic distance learning courses that are available on this interweb thingie. Hell, I did my MBA this way.

Is there any of these ’erudite’ centres out there willing to take up the challenge? I suspect not!

Andy Petkus
Chris Oggham
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Charlie,

Presumably by "FULL BLOOD ENGINEERS" you mean someone with an engineering degree together with a suitable period of experience working as an engineer? To become a " PLANNING ENGINEER" this same person would then have to obtain a suitable planning qualification together with suitable period of experience.

Now I have no doubt that there are people who have done that, but Charlie, there aren’t very many of them. Certainly not enough to fill the demand for Planners, let alone Schedulers and Keyboard Jockeys. All that can be reasonably asked of a person going into a junior planning position is that they have the necessary physical and mental attributes to do the work. If they’ve got a bit of experience as well, wonderful! If they are willing to work hard, gain experience and expertise, marvellous! What isn’t so good, is that we should try to artificially restrict who can work in project planning and who can’t, so sorry Charlie, but your idea isn’t going to work.

As for Mickey and Donald, I’m sure they’ll be thrilled with you dedication.

Chris Oggham

David Bordoli
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Registered Engineers? That counts me out then :-(
Charleston-Joseph...
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I think what happen here is because we get on board planners, scheduler and keyboard jockeys.

Why not hire only PLANNING ENGINEERS, by that I mean

FULL BLOOD ENGINEERS

not the half bake, not the unregistered engineers

Anyway this thread is dedicated to mickey mouse and donald duck.

I got lost

Darren Kosa
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Anyone else think that this is beginning to sound like a comedy sketch from The Frost Report!!!

Planner: "I look down on them because I am a Planner."

Scheduler: "I look up to him because he is a Planner, but I look down on him because he is a Keyboard Jockey. I am a Scheduler."

Keyboard Jockey: "I know my place."

Planner: "I get a feeling of superiority over them."

Scheduler: "I get a feeling of inferiority from him but a feeling of superiority over him."

Keyboard Jockey: "I get a pain in the back of my neck."

It’s good to see society has moved forward. ;)

Regards,

Darren
Daya Sugunasingha
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There is nothing confusing about the situation.
Planners, Shedulers and keyboard jockeys like to think that they are the most important guys on a project but in fact they are only a service to Project Managerment.
The Planner or Scheduler or Keyboard Jockey are part of a team of a project, The Project Manager being the Top Man followed by the bean counter then the Construction Managers.
The Planner should be the Project Manager’s right hand man feed him with information about sequence, methods, timing, delays etc.
Thats what I think so just get on and do your job as best you can
Raviraj Bhedase
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Thats utter confusion,

Just go through post # 6 of this thread. That will clarify, who is inferior and who is not.

Its not the job which is inferior, its the attitude of people who make the job look inferior.
Gwen Blair
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As a former housewife with no construction or planning background experience prior to being a Planning Assistant last century, I am proud to announce that I have no relatives mafia connections to shoe horn me into a more senior planning position with corresponding terms and conditions.
I have gained my experience by planning my own career, negotiating my T&C and been lucky enough to pick and choose where and when I work.
I hasten to add I am not living on additonal stipend, divorce proceedings nor lottery winnings.
Planning? Scheduling? Keyboard Jockey? I can be all three.
Does this imply Planners are superior to Schedulers and Keyboard Jockeys whilst Schedulers are inferior to Planners but superior to Keyboard Jockeys who in turn are inferior to Planners & Scheduler?
Anoon Iimos
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i believe Charlie is a good (Planner?) and he didn’t literally mean what he says (sometimes?)

what i’m sure of is, he is not born from the west
Sajid Syed
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Charleston,

IT IS NOT A MATTER OF PERSONAL DISGUST, I HAVE FELT DISCRIMINATION IN YOUR TONE

YOU WERE BORN IN THE WEST AND THAT IS NOT YOUR PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT. YOU COULD WELL HAVE BEEN BORN IN MY PLACE IN PAKISTAN. AND EVEN WORST, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN THE SEVENTEENTH SON OF "USAMA BIN LADIN". UNDER HIS BROUGHT UP,YOU HAD ALL THE CHANCES OF BEING WHAT YOU DISGUST THE MOST.

WHY SPEND YOUR TIME HATING OTHERS, WHEN YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY OF CREATING SOME LOVE.


NOW TO ALL FRIENDS....
GETTING BACK TO MY EARLIEST POST. FERTILIZER INDUSTRY IS DIFFERENT FROM CONSTRUCTION IN A LARGE NUMBER OF WAYS, THE STAKES ARE HIGH AND THE PROCESSES ARE ARE COMPLEX. WE PLAN HOURS AND NOT DAYS OR MONTHS. UNDER SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES, I THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE PICK UP PLANNERS WHO HAVE SOME TOUCH OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IN THE FIELD. IT GIVES A MORE REALISTIC TOUCH TO PLANNING.

ANYHOW I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT PETROCHEMICAL/POWER INDUSTRY IS DOING IN THE REST OF THE WORLD?
David Bordoli
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Sajid

Please do keep posting on the board - especially your criticisms of Charlie. Thank-you for joining the gang that find Charlies musings meaningless, misinforming and offensive. I still believe, still hope, that if enogh of us tell him he might get the message and change his ways (but is that a false hope too?).

David
Charleston-Joseph...
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Sajid,

My email is charlieorbe@gmail.com.

I’m also sorry I disturb you equanimity.

Feel free to exhaust your emotion (negative or positive) if it will help you recover from the trauma.

I play fairly. I will take what I give.


Sajid Syed
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QUITE AN OBNOXIOUS PERSON YOU SEEM TO BE FROM YOUR REPLY OF MY POST MR Charleston-Joseph.

I FEEL SORRY FOR YOUR ATTITUDE.

YOU SEEM TO HAVE QUITE A HATRED FOR US THIRD WORLD PEOPLE. I THINK YOU HAVE POOR MORALS.. AND YOU ARE BLATANT ENOUGH TO EXPRESS THEM TOO.

I WISH TO TAKE THIS NO MORE ON THIS BOARD. YOU GIVE ME YOUR EMAIL CONTACT AND ILL TELL YOU MORE OF WHAT I THINK OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
Nigel Winkley
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Anoon

Quite agree - to a point. If someone has the right sort of thinking then they can be ’trained’ to be a planner. If not then it is almost impossible. However, if you take the right guys to begin with, then the traiining/mentoring to raise their knowledge, encourage them should work.
Cheers
Nige
Anoon Iimos
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just bought the t-shirt from your factory and just want to add a bit..be careful when passing the knowledge, planning could be very risky (especially if not fully understood)..I still believe that Planners are born..it’s very hard/difficult to make a Planner
Nigel Winkley
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Hi All

Having read this post might I humbly add my two-penn’th.

The industry, (life?) in certain parts of the world, is unfair. Live with it. That’s the way it is. Managers are a pain, jobs for the boys are a pain, so be the best you can, do the best you can and who knows.

Planners, schedulers, software jockeys, they all have their roles. Like some other posters, I started on an Elephant drawing board, P3 for DOS, then Windows, used all sorts of stuff - remember Hornet and CPM? BUT I can still think out a plan without software. It’s a little thing called experience and logic. We all get it sometime but some can use/apply it.

Schedulers are useful to ’do an update’. Not necessarily to analyse it, work everything out etc., but if they work for me, they will be mentored, trained, encouraged until they become planners. Most of use old guys think the same. I have been made redundant because I trained three local guys to do my job. Was I sad? No, felt great.

Bottom line? Pass your knowledge on, treat people fairly, don’t be racist/sexist/ageist/anything-ist. Have fun by all means but realise that some things are wrong and always will be.

Signed

The guy that built the Tee-Shirt Factory
Chris Oggham
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David,

I don’t know why it is, but I seem to have a habit of looking at a thread just in time to find Charlie being unpleasant to someone. I must admit I found your immediate response and those after extremely amusing but, besides not getting irony or sarcasm, I don’t think Charlie realises what a clown he made himself look.

I noticed in his post #52 one of the things Charlie looks down on is nepotism; rather interesting since Charlie admitted on this forum that he got his first planning job on a project where his dad was the project manager!

I also noticed that in post #59 he’s still referring to himself as "Sensei - Successful Project Management Consultant", maybe he does do irony after all.

Chris Oggham
Charleston-Joseph...
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David,

Bravo,

You did enlighten my mind. My sincere thank you to your post.

I usually make it a point to prepare Time Impact Report and I used TIA.

This really make a little conflict

"the current trend towards as-planned –v- as-built as opposed to the more technical methods"

The as-planed vs as-built is a static approach in delay analysis which really did not reflect the true status of the project at any point in time. I encoutered this type and it is very simplistic. This is for the lazy and of course for the "keyboard jockeys", the labourer, housewives, the cronies that becomes planners.

On the other hand TIA is a dynamic approach to delay analysis which really reflect the true status of the project at any period in time, the true nature of the project (project is dynamic).

On a higher level, using TIA periodically will enchance the practice of planning professional. Why is this so???? to be continued

Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant
David Bordoli
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Charlie

I vow I will never get embroiled in these conversations – but then I do…

Some forensic claims specialists use TIA and some use it some of the time. The starting point for any prospective analysis is the establishment of a baseline programme. As in most things there is a question of reasonableness, intent and other stuff like practicality. That is where the opinion of ‘experts’ comes in. For instance if the baseline showed something illogical – say that the walls were to be erected before the foundations – then it might be acceptable for the analyst to ‘correct’ the illogicality before commencing the TIA. Similarly, if there is something so obviously wrong with a baseline programme as far as durations go that would render it’s use meaning less then correction of those ‘faults’ is acceptable. TIA then starts from this reasonable basis. Therefore your hypothesis ‘if the same baseline (contract) duration is unreasonable then all TIA is base on unreasonable materials hence the conclusion is unreasonable’ is not proven.

May I direct you to paragraphs 14.217 to 14.231 of ‘Delay and Disruption in Construction Contracts – 3rd edition’. Mr Pickavance has a whole section on ‘correcting the planned programme’.

TIA is not the be all and end all of delay analysis and if the baseline programme does not reflect the work subsequently carried out (for whatever reason) then maybe a more retrospective method would be more suitable. And in my very humble opinion (as always) I believe the current trend towards as-planned –v- as-built as opposed to the more technical methods is due to a few high profile cases where, TIA for example, has been used in perhaps a slipshod manner. The technique is not at fault it is the application of the technique that could be bringing it into disrepute.

What you need to understand is that generally a delay analysis is not the same as a criminal investigation. All we are trying to do is to demonstrate, let’s say cause and effect, on the balance of probabilities and to help those in a dispute come to a meeting of minds.

David

ps. But what this has got to do with Planners -v- Schedulers -v- Keyboard Jockeys I don’t know!
Charleston-Joseph...
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Dear David Bordoli,

This time it got "O". I believe name of person should not be taken for granted. My apology.

On the other hand, why discourse in this thread. I waited for your to reply on URI’s thread "CONTRACT DURATION UNREASONABLE"

Your forensic claim so please show your exemplenary discourse on claims. so far only Mr. Andrew is consistent

This is my understanding on URI thread:

Basically, forensic claims specialist use TIA and TIA use baseline schedule. So question???? How can a forensic claims specialist judged a baseline (contract) duration as unreasonable if the same baseline schedule is use in TIA????

If the same baseline (contract) duration is unreasonable then all TIA is base on unreasonable materials hence the conclusion is unreasonable.

Similar to Illogical brain giving Illogical conclusion.



David Bordoli
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Dear Chumpy

It’s Bordoli with an ’O’...

And we Brits thought it was only the Americans who do not get sarcasm and irony (or am I falling into that trap also?).

Charleston-Joseph...
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David,

Who will believe you if you confirm that you have illogical brain?????

This is very dangerous since since a lot of your post maybe derived from your illogical brain and hence illogical conclusion.

This is only a further explanation of your statement, comming from a decription of yourself

I hope you will offer a further explanation HOW you conclude that you have an ILLOGICAL Brain and checked if your previous posting and observation comes from your, you know, I hope you know
Charleston-Joseph...
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DAVID BARDOLI,

you miss the meaning of this thread!!!!!!!!!

the meaning of the thread says "a lot of planners out there are questionable as in ???????

so it follows that the reply to this thread are also ??????

??????? means illogical. This only confirm you statement "To my illogical brain ..." The english language is very clear

"YOU HAVE ILLOGICAL BRAIN"

Crystal clear

David Bordoli
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Hi Charlie...

How I have missed your wise words of late. This thread will no be so much more informative thanks to your valued input.

Just one thing:
"in Pakistan anyone can be anybody" and "This happened because of corruptions, nepotism, mafias, etc". To my illogical brain those two statements are mutually exclusive.

Heck - but who ever expected a coherent argument from you!

All offence intended of course.

David
Charleston-Joseph...
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HIi Sajid,

I can only say that in Pakistan anyone can be anybody.

So, it is not surprising with your opinion with regards to " here they do not take engineers into planning until they have spent some years in field maintenance". It just show what happen in your country.

We can only wish Pakistan a nd its people all the best.

On the other hand, Pakistan is not alone. I encountered labourer, housewives, from other nationalities, without engineeering background or construction background doing senior planning responsibilities. This happened because of corruptions, nepotism, mafias, etc.

Cheers,


Sajid Syed
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hi
i think it is somewhat different in different industry. i manage shutdowns and turnarounds of a fertilizer plant. here they do not take engineers into planning until they have spent some years in field maintenance. i first spent about six years in different field maintenance positions and now for the past one year i have been working with primavera in the planning team. though i am still not as good as i think i ought to be, in a year or to ill fluent with the soft ware.

the crux of the matter "the company philosophy is: those who have spent some years executing plans themselves, can go on to make good planners in the end"

what do you people say about that
Daya Sugunasingha
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Ken
I agree with both Anoon and Andy who have given you some very good advice.

I would contribute thus by asking you to analysize the information you are given by the estimators and the site manager and see if you agree with it. Is there a better way to do it and if you think so, talk to them and see if they agree, if not, understand why they disagree.

As mentioned by Anoon and Andy, go and see the operations on site and critique it.

You have to gain the confidence of the company that if left to your own devices would you come up with the correct result for the company and not put it at risk of loss.

When you have the confidence that you can do it yourself and you have gained the confidence of others you should still look for better ways of doing something and also don’t forget that it is never a waste of time discussing it with the guys that have to do it on site.

In Planning you have to "buy in" the operatives to your plan and so they believe that it is "their plan" that has been put down on paper. If they do not believe it they will not work to it.

Keep it up you are doing fine.

Good luck for the future

Daya
Andy Petkus
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I agree with you Anoon. Younger guys must spend time out on site and preferably in a ’live hands-on’ supervisor’s role. This would give the best detailed insight into the planning that a supervisor needs to do to keep his team busy, e.g. he needs to make sure that the all the drawings, materials, plant and equipment will be available for next week’s activities, for example.

This experience is brought into the planning office and when a programme is built, you can remember and visualise a task that you’ve personally done out on site. You then speak with authority.

Years ago, my old ’mentor’ told me:
"youth and enthusiasm will never overcome years of experience and cunning"

So, Ken, spend most of your day out on site and befriend the supervisors, these guys can make or very quickly break a budding planner’s heart.

Good luck!

Andy
Anoon Iimos
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you are very lucky to have senior planners (i supposed mentors)with you...for me the best route is to master the software you are using and listen, listen, listen, (after all you are the only one mastering the software), after spending enough time Listening! get out of the office (this is a must) and spend your time mastering the site,

when you come back to the office, it is your time to SHOUT!
(but it takes years, too young at 26...)
Ken Barrett
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Great disscussion,

I would like to pose a question to all of you out there.
Fist off, a little about my background.
I am 26 years old and have been a "Jr. Planner" for a mechanical contracting company for about 2 years. My Educational background is Mechanical Engineering. The company had 2 "aged" planners (both with 30+ years of experience in planning) that were gearing up for retirement, and the idea was to bring in a young guy and have him trained by the Senior guys. When the Seinor Planners retired, the young guy will be able to step in seamlessly (I am the young guy)
The company has sent me on Primavera (version 5) training and now I would be the "scheduler" as I am the only one within the company that is fluent with P5.
Now, in the past few years the company is leaning toward promoting older trades workers into planning roles. They get the scope of work, they look at the job, they plan the steps. This plan is given to an estimator which gives the steps time estimates, and in turn is given to me to input in to P5, link/sort/graph/everything that the Managers want.
Now for my question... I am not satisfied with this position and am extrely enthusiastic about "climing the ladder". I want to get the experience in ever aspect of planning construction. Basically I strive to be a "total package" and be knowlegable in everything.
What do you think the best route for me to take to achieve my goal?? The last thing I want is to be a "keyboard jocky" for the rest of my career.

Thanks
Ken Barrett
Daya Sugunasingha
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There is a consensus in general on this topic that Planning is more then being able to use the tools.
I like David B’s comparison with a carpenter who is a wizard with the use of his saw.
Just think what the situation would be if he/she did not understand how to measure and calculate a length or angle of a cut.
This carpenter would perform a wonder job as long there was someone else to mark the timber for him/her.
Don’t you agree?
Andy Petkus
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Bill,

As the guilty party that started this topic, you are one of the few who has grasped what I’m on about. I entirely agree with your post.

It is interesting though that it seems to be just us ’old lags’ that have these sentiments, the majority of the other posts, it seems to me anyway, that it is the ’youngsters’ have come from the basic P3 course, whom I call keyboard jockeys, perhaps rising to scheduler level through some project experience. Planning engineers? never! not until they’ve come up through the ranks with mucky boots first.

Just need to read through the earlier posts and the absolute twaddle that’s been posted to see what I’m talking about.

In way though, I’m glad that project managers hire these guys ’cos when they cock it all up, these project managers will come crying looking for an experienced ’hairy ars...d’ planning engineer from the old school.

Cheers,
Andy
Bill Guthrie
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You guys are correct in your comments.

Soooo many times people claim to be a planner because they took the 4 day p3 course and think that qualifies them.
Get many applications like this for a job with my company and after a 5 minute chat find out applicants could not even plan to grab their own tail with both hands but can speak the verbage of primavera.

FIRST BECOME A PLANNER, ON THE JOB WITH PEN AND PAPER
THEN LEARN HOW TO RUN A PROGRAM, PUT TWO TOGETHER AND THEN
THEY COULD APPLY TO KEY IN DATA BUT STILL ARE NOT A PLANNER.
When I was planning before computers, I-J Node type work, we had paper running all down the halls and draftsman daily updating them. That was planning before computers.

And upper managment grabs a phase like A CRITICAL PATH ITEM and have not idea what the heck a critical path is.

Makes me blood riseeee.

so keep advising the younger ones, to get a job as a site supe or something first, get the boots muddy, and then come up to a role that would allow them to use their degree.
cheers bill
Raphael M. Dua
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Daya

How right you are. Old and experienced is my motto, because as you so rightly put it Garbage in is Garbage Out, but nowadays Garbage in Gospel Out :-)

Raf
Raphael M. Dua
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Daya

How right you are. Old and experienced is my motto, because as you so rightly put it Garbage in is Garbage Out, but nowadays Garbage in Gospel Out :-)

Raf
Izam Zakaria
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It’s a great conversation at all. Just wanna to jot down a several statements here. How to be a great planner must have great experiences.
Different company, different project, different people of project team have a different execution. This is more important the way you grew up persistently.
Primavera, MS project, Monte Carlo and Maximo just only software’s, just only tools. But that one is advantage if u can control and expert on these tools.
The success any events are directly proportional to the timely preparation. Just work so hard then we can make our dreams comes true.
Ife Olyke
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David, i agree with you in toto. if you don’t know how to manipulate the software to get your desired output, then ou have a problem. On the other hand, if you don’t know the desired output, but you know how to manipulate the software, you also have a problem. like you sai "pretty competent in all areas".. cheers..
David Bordoli
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I have been thinking about this recently (see also my post http://www.planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=9&Top=40131) and I see software as a tool. What about the analogy with a carpenter… could anyone say they are a carpenter without being able to use a saw? And is the carpenter liable to be a better carpenter if he is highly proficient at using his saw?

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that I also think it difficult to separate planner/scheduler/keyboard jockey. I don’t think such roles could be carried out in isolation and those who want to practise in our discipline out to be pretty competent in all areas.
Daya Sugunasingha
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Raphael
I still have a few hairs on my head but alas most of them are grey.
I know what you mean and how right you are.
I look up in despair when some planner puts software above knowledge, experience, collaboration and logical thinking. Never the less modern planning software does help do the calculations for the more complex projects, help with comparing different methods, and help with reprints (I would not like to go back to the days when we had to draw the final chart by hand)
However, computers and software are only tools. The planner and his/her clear thinking, (and as you say) talking to colleges and always looking for better ways is the key to success.
"Garbage in Garbage out"
"Gems in Gems out"
Raphael M. Dua
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Guys

Those of us who have travelled the world for more years than we have hair left years going from project to project, having to cope not only with the whims of the client, the vagaries of people who say they are engineers, site mangers et al and those who know better will have you "do it my way" can claim to be Senior Planners and Schedulers

But you get on and do the Plan without recourse to computers and software, then you get some idea of the hard yakka needed, the depth of understanding of delivery requirements, which WILL always occur regardless of your plan. Completion WILL always occur. But for what cost and time.

Now you are on your way to understanding that all projects have their own life and most of all the politicians in the project most certainly will get the credit for your work.

But you know you are right and perhaps you are now learning that Planning is NOT about being a software jockey.

Primavera certainly doesn’t make you a planner and Primavera do not claim that the software will make you what you are not.

Scheduling too has it’s joys, but unless you know the way the maths works and you know how to create a half decent network through logic and not a Gantt, then you may be on the way.

Project Planning and Scheduling is an intellectual process. Knowing what it is that you are going to Plan and Schedule is paramount.

Some of the postings on this site have made me cry with the stupidity of them. eg "asking what is Resource scheduling about and getting many replies telling them look up a software package. ugh

Back to basics and do it properly on paper first, or if you cannot live in this electronic age without some form of equipment, use a whiteboard. Build the plan with the folk who are going to do the work, who else is going to tell you - the planner how it will be done.

Most of planning and scheduling is done initially on paper then when we know we have the answer the client is expecting, then and only then does it go into the computer.
Then the fun starts in understanding what the software did to your beautiful balanced PLan.

But then that is another story





Se de Leon
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I think code of ethics plays a major part in solving the problems discussed in this thread. I would suggest the following:

1. For the wannabees - Accept responsibility in performing professional actions only when qualified through training and experience.
2. For the bluffers - Provide professional opinion only when you have adequate knowledge and honest convictions.

Cheers,
Se
Clive Randall
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I believe 3 years as a site engineer with manadatory discussions with foreman every day, no computer, no ac and no office will create excellent planners who really know what they are looking at

Not this, straight out of uni, into a place full of computers, carpets, women and coffee machines, bussiness cards and wellingtons with the string still on them. Having to wear a bloody suit and tie.

bah humbug

All you will produce is textbook heros or civil servants, or worst of all a university lecturer.

Bah double humbug
Edderic See
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Hi guys,

I believe that having a PMP certification for planners, managers is a good way to enhance the quality of our profession. No matter what level you are in your place, being certified will help the industry in the future.

Regards,

Ed
John Baldwin
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Hi Andy

Ignoring the rest and going back to your original posting, I agree with you 100000%. I have almost 20 years experience so yes I worked on the Dos version (missed) it is my major frustration as Lead planner on my current project I simply can not find planners, I get piles of CV’s of guys that have done a MSP course or a Primavera course but they do not have a clue and he sells himself as a senior and should be a junior at best even with some of them that have 8 years experience.

I am looking at training youngsters now and straight away the PM says send them on a Primavera course, I have refused and want the guy to do it buy hand first and grasp the concept of planning and analysing which is what is lacking.

Se de Leon
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Hi Charlie,

Don’t get me wrong with my last postings. I do understand your frustration in that part of the world because that’s the reality there. The only point I’m trying to drive at is what evolves the position of planner. My theory is that Project Managers/Construction Managers got to their positions without gaining first the necessary skills. Imagine if all the PM/CM knows their required skills, what will happen to the planning profession, it will diminish because what these PM/CM will do is they will just hire schedulers. If I’m the PM, I don’t want somebody thinking/planning for my project. This is where I think where the gray area lies about this subject.

Going back to your last comment charlie. I know someone who was not hired as PM because of the color of his skin. This guy is very very good, but unfortunately that’s how it works sometimes.

Cheers,
Se
Raviraj Bhedase
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aNDY,

I really dont want to support Charlie for his post, but he must have made this remark as he is working in UAE, where this is a fact. Rules are different for different colours of skin and thats the reason u can find all these europeans as manager only and only european young boys (age < 26) will be engineers.

That might be his frustration, as people with different ethinicity have to struggle hard to go up on the ladder even though efficiency is far better than europeans coming here.

Most of the europeans coming here are either fitter / plumber / mason / carpenter etc. Its very difficult to find technically qualified europeans in this market.

THATS LIFE!!!
Andy Petkus
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What do you mean by ’white men? This is a racist remark and you must stop immediately!

I also consider your remark "IM THE MANAGER, SOMEONE HAS TO DO THE WORK FOR ME" is quite frankly insulting. I personally know of many PCMs and Planning Engineers from non-european backgrounds who do the job far far better than a lot of of your categorised ’europeans’

However, as a PCM in that category, I do agree somewhat to your point, but very loosely, in that prospective candidates should do a proficiency test. But who will be the governing body that will prepare a standard test and mark the results and give an opinion on the candidate’s ability to do the job and how will a candidate’s many years of experience be scored?

Another point is, how will that governing body define the roles and responsibilities of a PCM, not all PCM roles are the same, some have different levels of roles and responsibilites and, more importantly, levels of authority.

If each industry e.g. civils, railway, petro-chem, power, etc., had a standardised test, it will not be effective as a measuring tool as the answers will be quickly known, so what would be the point of having a test.

As regards a company taking on a new PCM, it is mostly on a project basis, i.e. once the project’s finished. then it’s bye bye PCM. there is also the fact that as most projects require financing from outside banks, it they who dictate the project team members’ backgrounds and education levels.

I think that you haven’t really thought things out far enough to be able to justify your post.
Charleston-Joseph...
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Se,

In your post, I agree with you.

It is very common to find white men and native born english speaker occupying position as Project Control Manager or Planning Manager without any fundamental knowledge of there work.

At the end of the day, these managers will hire people from third world countries to do there job and these manager will tell the owner "IM THE MANAGER, SOMEONE HAS TO DO THE WORK FOR ME." Amen, Amen, Amen, Etc., Etc., Etc.,

I believe companies should give prospective candidates with hand on proficiency check in using planning software P3 only since MSP anyone can always become a planner using MSP.

My solution from my other threads is really very useful.

Cheers,

Sensei

Daya Sugunasingha
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Tried the link and it does work.
Interesting article!
My only comment is that he puts planning at the top of the sequence of the process of constructing and before design. This is not possible.How ever, it is a good article to read.
DS
Raviraj Bhedase
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Checked,

It works fine.

Check one more time. It shud work

http://www.primaveratools.com/tabid/136/itemid/42/Planning-versus-Schedu...

Cheers,
Clive Randall
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cant open this on the URL you have given can you check it
Raviraj Bhedase
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Check this link,

Nice article on PLANNING V/s SCHEDULING

http://www.primaveratools.com/tabid/136/itemid/42/Planning-versus-Schedu...

Cheers,

Ravi
Se de Leon
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Clive,

some of the reasons why PM/CM can’t do planning is, either they are lazy and/or stubborn. They moved into that position without gaining first all the necessary skills. Not that they don’t want to do it, but they can’t do it because of the reasons I just mentioned.

IMHO(Dieter, I learned about this in planningplantet in 2002)
Se
Dieter Wambach
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Maybe I’ll miss you. But no PP as well, just relax.
Dieter
Clive Randall
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And no planning planet when your on leave Dieter
Dieter Wambach
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Hi Andy
Today is the last day before 2,5 weeks of holidays, no internet, no business phone, no business!
Just my wife and me!
Cheers
Dieter
Andy Petkus
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Told you already Clive - still trying to sober up!!
Clive Randall
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your in Bangkok and your talking about planning

9 million was an exageration but I have seen baseline programmes of 150,000 activities.