Thanks Raf for the link,

But I believe, its exactly similar to PSP. No change and will cost you USD 520 , which is more than what I paid for PMP last year.

Raf,

The link u have shown is for PSP professional, which I believe is already in existence.

What @ the new credential system handbook. Plz share the link.

Cheers,

Raviraj, PMP

Raviraj

Sorry about I just copied the link from the PMICOS page
Try this one

https://www.aacei.org/certification/PSP/PSPapplic.shtml


Raf

Dear All

As I said in my previous post the PMI has announced a new project scheduling credential that will be brought to the market soon.

PMI will be launching this new credential in the second quarter of 2008. The pilot will be conducted between May 30th and July 31st 2008. The first 100 candidates to sit for the exam will receive 50% off the price of the exam and will be entered into one of the four regional drawings for a chance to win $1,000. You can find a link to the handbook here.

For information on how to become a pilot participant contact certquestions@pmi.org

I guess this should satisfy those amongst you who yearn for a qualification.
Well my PMI colleagues and I have worked hard to bring this to you so now it is your turn.

Raf

Hi Guys,

I’ve been away for a couple of days, and it looks as if I missed out on the action. Once again it has been graphically demonstrated that Charlie doesn’t bother reading a post before making his reply. Although I suppose that should be replies, since once he had started he didn’t seem to be able to stop.

Dieter and Anthony have answered more than effectively in posts #95 and #96, so I’m not going to bother. All I ask, Charlie, is that you read posts before posting your reply, failure to do so merely makes you look foolish and incompetant.

Chris Oggham

Hi Charly
Who is able to read, in general has an advantage. Mr. Raphael Dua wrote: "..using a piece of software does not make you a Planner and or a Scheduler...". He didn’t vote for no use of a software. As far as I know he is even the author of a package. In addition he is one of the real experts in planning and scheduling and I’m proud to have the chance to learn from him - as from others in this forum as well.
For a scheduler it is essential to know how to use scheduling software. But the sequence must be:
First learn planning and scheduling and
Second learn the software.
Otherwise you have absolutely no chance to understand how it works and to take conclusions of its results.
Regards from Germany
Dieter

Mr. Raph,

That is only the tip of the iceberge.

I understand your sentimentally of the whole episode as you watch how planners evolve into suave computer gick compared to our forefather (I hope you dont belong to our forefather) struggle to ensure the i node and the j node are really logicall and how we invent dummy activities to ensure the i-j node follows the basic principle. Of course we have to look forward in such a way that the j node is always greater than the i node. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

But this is only being emotionally. We have to be objective and that means:

STOP UNDERMINING THE NEWBIES IN THE EVENT THEY TEND TO PLAY around as in KEYBOARD JOCKEYS.

The good old days is always GOOD OLD DAYS. I dont see any point to be sentimental about it.

There is always a brigther tomorrow with planning software as a must for the new generation of planning scheduling engineers.

Dear Raph

This statement is not realistic in the present context of planning and scheduling refering to pretigious projects, mixed developments involving towers, sckycrappers, etc.

"... the fact that using a piece of software does not make you a Planner and or a Scheduler"

Planning software skills is a must in this present world we are in. And you will only be called a planning and scheduling engineer (planner or scheduler) if you know how to handle planning software (Primavera: the best choice, MS Project for mickey mouse and donald duck, others for those who are trying hard ...)

Believe me Raph, you exposition belongs to the "GOOD OLD DAYS". But what matter most is TODAY AND TOMORROW.

Cheers,

THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH, ALA JAMES BOND 007.

Some nationalities are really pampered and pompous ass while some nationalities are struggling to be at par with superior nationanlities (USA and UK).

I belong to third world country and I did struggle to attain ......


Andy the fundamental problem with internaitonally recognize blah blah blah is that the USA of A and the UK will never agree on what to agree so at the end they agree to disagree.

So what more if the francophine, the russian, the chinese, the japanes, the iranians, etc. etc. will get involved with thie internationally recognize so and so .....

It will not happened.

So, knowing this reality, it is better to stick with the fundamentals, the reasonable planning and scheduling process, anything that is simple, explainable, understandable, logical and acceptable.

Sensei,
Successful Project Management Consultant

David,

I agree and this is precisely the strategy I am taking. I am spending as much time on site as possible, learning from the guys on the ground in relation to the existing programmes what works and what doesn’t. I find this more beneficial than working removed in an office learning from planners who are barely on site.

Just thought Id add some fuel to the fire.
I have been in planning for just over a year and am a youngster in career terms (30yrs). I have read alot of threads from senior planners who are highlighting the lack of skills from new planners coming in to the marketplace. However, junior planners cannot be entirely blamed. I feel that the training In the industry (especially by the senior planners working alongside junior planners) is not good enough. I started in Rail, and was sent on a P3e course and told to get on with it - to produce reports and layouts etc. The software is just the tool, planning principles and disiplines are what needs to be taught, and some senior planners are unwilling to share there knowledge. I have since left and joined construction, where again I am in a position where I am expected to teach myself. I am keen to get on and be the best I can be, but in order for this industry to keep growing and be passed on to the next generation, training needs to be standardised and improved dramatically.

John:

I am a P3 proponent.

Prefered scheduling methodology CPM/PDM

Preferred analysis type TIME IMPACT ANALYSIS

Secondary analysis type AS PLANNED PLUS IMPACT ANALYSIS
(only to defend against liquidated damage assessments)

I wrote a much longer response but the site did not post it and brought me back to the log in screen.............

John:

I just registered on this website today and noticed your post on this thread.

You hit the nail on the head regarding OBS being key in preparing a usable/functional schedule.

In having presented many schedule development and maintenance seminars over the years. I always ask the audience the question. "What is the first thing you do with a pizza pie when it comes out of the oven?" Slice it up!, before delving into discussion on determining and developing the organizational structure of the schedule.

And with this comes schedule purpose, a schedule suited to whose use and for what?

If the answer ranges from Executive level sumarization to Field level short term planing an resource utilization, a little more time spent on design of the organizational structure required to satisfy an "all user" scenario will produce a more usable and navigable scheduling tool than one that is "patched" together as the project progresses.

Andy

At last some cool calm collected thoughts. Watching this thread emerge over the past few months has just been amazing. Never seen such poor manners, and so many missing the point. I have refrained from responding as most postings have been juvenile and not very professional. Professional, something you all want, but patently lack the disciple to achieve.

As probably the Grandfather of Planners, Schedulers and Cost control Engineers, in Asia Pacific if not the World; I have been doing this stuff since Kelly & Walker back in 1956, which by my reckoning is now 52 years. If you have to ask who Kelly and Walker were, you don’t deserve to call yourself a planner and scheduler

I have written (with others) my own software, never trusted other peoples mathematics, My colleagues and I only went for a 100% answer, not "nearly got there" ; "Nearly achieved the budget".

That was the way we were trained, which of course was on the job, cos back then that was all there was. Veracity and Accuracy was drummed into us

Now there is a Plethora of Good Planning and Scheduling information, plenty of PM software (but only to do the hard yakka, it will not PLAN for you) expert people, planners, groups etc.exist in many countries.

It is obvious that using PM software enables a person to learn from the vendor’s manual some rudimentary Planning and Scheduling. But it takes practice, asking Senior Colleagues for help etc


In UK the PEO is actually extremely good and Gary Francis is doing a great job in trying to produce standards.

"Andy" the PMI is now doing what you want and that is an accreditation for Schedulers and Planners. It will be called PSP and you will have to work for it as ones does for a PMP

As I am intimately involved with this process I am not permitted by the rules of the process of creating PMI credentials to go into too much detail until it is released

Why not join the PMICOS, it costs a few $US and provides you with a great resource of very knowledgable professional Planners and Schedulers who want to help you get better at planning (not whinging !)

I have offered my basic CPM manual "Free" to those who want a copy and requested that if you wanted a copy, e-mail me privately. Over two thirds who did request it asked on line in the forum and not as instructed. Makes you wonder how they cope with Project Scope, Planning Information, Scheduling processes what do we do when you can’t that right.

I taught Planning and Scheduling for years at University of Melbourne and other colleagues also did the same at other Australian uni’s. In New Zealand the University of Technology in Auckland taught Planning and Scheduling.

So uni training is around and some of those folk who teach it are now looking at getting involved in the promulgation of P & S via the PMI College of Scheduling.

If people are interested I still have my basic teaching manuals, but it is structured around Micro Planner X-Pert for Windows, but if you would like a copy e-mail me raf@microplanning.com.au

Well that’s my bit for the week, have to go and plan a Mine

Raf

Andy

I don’t speak on Behalf of the Planning Engineer’s Organisation but I do talk to gary every now and again and I know he is as concerned as we all seem to be about qualifications, or tests of compitence, for planners.

Part of the development of the PEO will include such things, last we spoke he was trying to get some distance learning stuff up and running so as not to discriminate (Hi Charlie) against those that are not based, say, in the UK or near to centres of learning.

When I see him again I’ll mention it and see what, if any, progress has been made. i do know that he has an awful lot on his plate at the moment so don’t expect instantaneoyus results.

Charlie,

Presumably by "FULL BLOOD ENGINEERS" you mean someone with an engineering degree together with a suitable period of experience working as an engineer? To become a " PLANNING ENGINEER" this same person would then have to obtain a suitable planning qualification together with suitable period of experience.

Now I have no doubt that there are people who have done that, but Charlie, there aren’t very many of them. Certainly not enough to fill the demand for Planners, let alone Schedulers and Keyboard Jockeys. All that can be reasonably asked of a person going into a junior planning position is that they have the necessary physical and mental attributes to do the work. If they’ve got a bit of experience as well, wonderful! If they are willing to work hard, gain experience and expertise, marvellous! What isn’t so good, is that we should try to artificially restrict who can work in project planning and who can’t, so sorry Charlie, but your idea isn’t going to work.

As for Mickey and Donald, I’m sure they’ll be thrilled with you dedication.

Chris Oggham

I think what happen here is because we get on board planners, scheduler and keyboard jockeys.

Why not hire only PLANNING ENGINEERS, by that I mean

FULL BLOOD ENGINEERS

not the half bake, not the unregistered engineers

Anyway this thread is dedicated to mickey mouse and donald duck.

I got lost

There is nothing confusing about the situation.
Planners, Shedulers and keyboard jockeys like to think that they are the most important guys on a project but in fact they are only a service to Project Managerment.
The Planner or Scheduler or Keyboard Jockey are part of a team of a project, The Project Manager being the Top Man followed by the bean counter then the Construction Managers.
The Planner should be the Project Manager’s right hand man feed him with information about sequence, methods, timing, delays etc.
Thats what I think so just get on and do your job as best you can

As a former housewife with no construction or planning background experience prior to being a Planning Assistant last century, I am proud to announce that I have no relatives mafia connections to shoe horn me into a more senior planning position with corresponding terms and conditions.
I have gained my experience by planning my own career, negotiating my T&C and been lucky enough to pick and choose where and when I work.
I hasten to add I am not living on additonal stipend, divorce proceedings nor lottery winnings.
Planning? Scheduling? Keyboard Jockey? I can be all three.
Does this imply Planners are superior to Schedulers and Keyboard Jockeys whilst Schedulers are inferior to Planners but superior to Keyboard Jockeys who in turn are inferior to Planners & Scheduler?

Charleston,

IT IS NOT A MATTER OF PERSONAL DISGUST, I HAVE FELT DISCRIMINATION IN YOUR TONE

YOU WERE BORN IN THE WEST AND THAT IS NOT YOUR PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT. YOU COULD WELL HAVE BEEN BORN IN MY PLACE IN PAKISTAN. AND EVEN WORST, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN THE SEVENTEENTH SON OF "USAMA BIN LADIN". UNDER HIS BROUGHT UP,YOU HAD ALL THE CHANCES OF BEING WHAT YOU DISGUST THE MOST.

WHY SPEND YOUR TIME HATING OTHERS, WHEN YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY OF CREATING SOME LOVE.


NOW TO ALL FRIENDS....
GETTING BACK TO MY EARLIEST POST. FERTILIZER INDUSTRY IS DIFFERENT FROM CONSTRUCTION IN A LARGE NUMBER OF WAYS, THE STAKES ARE HIGH AND THE PROCESSES ARE ARE COMPLEX. WE PLAN HOURS AND NOT DAYS OR MONTHS. UNDER SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES, I THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE PICK UP PLANNERS WHO HAVE SOME TOUCH OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IN THE FIELD. IT GIVES A MORE REALISTIC TOUCH TO PLANNING.

ANYHOW I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT PETROCHEMICAL/POWER INDUSTRY IS DOING IN THE REST OF THE WORLD?

Sajid,

My email is charlieorbe@gmail.com.

I’m also sorry I disturb you equanimity.

Feel free to exhaust your emotion (negative or positive) if it will help you recover from the trauma.

I play fairly. I will take what I give.

Anoon

Quite agree - to a point. If someone has the right sort of thinking then they can be ’trained’ to be a planner. If not then it is almost impossible. However, if you take the right guys to begin with, then the traiining/mentoring to raise their knowledge, encourage them should work.
Cheers
Nige

Hi All

Having read this post might I humbly add my two-penn’th.

The industry, (life?) in certain parts of the world, is unfair. Live with it. That’s the way it is. Managers are a pain, jobs for the boys are a pain, so be the best you can, do the best you can and who knows.

Planners, schedulers, software jockeys, they all have their roles. Like some other posters, I started on an Elephant drawing board, P3 for DOS, then Windows, used all sorts of stuff - remember Hornet and CPM? BUT I can still think out a plan without software. It’s a little thing called experience and logic. We all get it sometime but some can use/apply it.

Schedulers are useful to ’do an update’. Not necessarily to analyse it, work everything out etc., but if they work for me, they will be mentored, trained, encouraged until they become planners. Most of use old guys think the same. I have been made redundant because I trained three local guys to do my job. Was I sad? No, felt great.

Bottom line? Pass your knowledge on, treat people fairly, don’t be racist/sexist/ageist/anything-ist. Have fun by all means but realise that some things are wrong and always will be.

Signed

The guy that built the Tee-Shirt Factory

David,

Bravo,

You did enlighten my mind. My sincere thank you to your post.

I usually make it a point to prepare Time Impact Report and I used TIA.

This really make a little conflict

"the current trend towards as-planned –v- as-built as opposed to the more technical methods"

The as-planed vs as-built is a static approach in delay analysis which really did not reflect the true status of the project at any point in time. I encoutered this type and it is very simplistic. This is for the lazy and of course for the "keyboard jockeys", the labourer, housewives, the cronies that becomes planners.

On the other hand TIA is a dynamic approach to delay analysis which really reflect the true status of the project at any period in time, the true nature of the project (project is dynamic).

On a higher level, using TIA periodically will enchance the practice of planning professional. Why is this so???? to be continued

Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant

Dear David Bordoli,

This time it got "O". I believe name of person should not be taken for granted. My apology.

On the other hand, why discourse in this thread. I waited for your to reply on URI’s thread "CONTRACT DURATION UNREASONABLE"

Your forensic claim so please show your exemplenary discourse on claims. so far only Mr. Andrew is consistent

This is my understanding on URI thread:

Basically, forensic claims specialist use TIA and TIA use baseline schedule. So question???? How can a forensic claims specialist judged a baseline (contract) duration as unreasonable if the same baseline schedule is use in TIA????

If the same baseline (contract) duration is unreasonable then all TIA is base on unreasonable materials hence the conclusion is unreasonable.

Similar to Illogical brain giving Illogical conclusion.

David,

Who will believe you if you confirm that you have illogical brain?????

This is very dangerous since since a lot of your post maybe derived from your illogical brain and hence illogical conclusion.

This is only a further explanation of your statement, comming from a decription of yourself

I hope you will offer a further explanation HOW you conclude that you have an ILLOGICAL Brain and checked if your previous posting and observation comes from your, you know, I hope you know

Hi Charlie...

How I have missed your wise words of late. This thread will no be so much more informative thanks to your valued input.

Just one thing:
"in Pakistan anyone can be anybody" and "This happened because of corruptions, nepotism, mafias, etc". To my illogical brain those two statements are mutually exclusive.

Heck - but who ever expected a coherent argument from you!

All offence intended of course.

David

hi
i think it is somewhat different in different industry. i manage shutdowns and turnarounds of a fertilizer plant. here they do not take engineers into planning until they have spent some years in field maintenance. i first spent about six years in different field maintenance positions and now for the past one year i have been working with primavera in the planning team. though i am still not as good as i think i ought to be, in a year or to ill fluent with the soft ware.

the crux of the matter "the company philosophy is: those who have spent some years executing plans themselves, can go on to make good planners in the end"

what do you people say about that

Great disscussion,

I would like to pose a question to all of you out there.
Fist off, a little about my background.
I am 26 years old and have been a "Jr. Planner" for a mechanical contracting company for about 2 years. My Educational background is Mechanical Engineering. The company had 2 "aged" planners (both with 30+ years of experience in planning) that were gearing up for retirement, and the idea was to bring in a young guy and have him trained by the Senior guys. When the Seinor Planners retired, the young guy will be able to step in seamlessly (I am the young guy)
The company has sent me on Primavera (version 5) training and now I would be the "scheduler" as I am the only one within the company that is fluent with P5.
Now, in the past few years the company is leaning toward promoting older trades workers into planning roles. They get the scope of work, they look at the job, they plan the steps. This plan is given to an estimator which gives the steps time estimates, and in turn is given to me to input in to P5, link/sort/graph/everything that the Managers want.
Now for my question... I am not satisfied with this position and am extrely enthusiastic about "climing the ladder". I want to get the experience in ever aspect of planning construction. Basically I strive to be a "total package" and be knowlegable in everything.
What do you think the best route for me to take to achieve my goal?? The last thing I want is to be a "keyboard jocky" for the rest of my career.

Thanks
Ken Barrett

Daya

How right you are. Old and experienced is my motto, because as you so rightly put it Garbage in is Garbage Out, but nowadays Garbage in Gospel Out :-)

Raf

It’s a great conversation at all. Just wanna to jot down a several statements here. How to be a great planner must have great experiences.
Different company, different project, different people of project team have a different execution. This is more important the way you grew up persistently.
Primavera, MS project, Monte Carlo and Maximo just only software’s, just only tools. But that one is advantage if u can control and expert on these tools.
The success any events are directly proportional to the timely preparation. Just work so hard then we can make our dreams comes true.

I have been thinking about this recently (see also my post http://www.planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=9&Top=40131) and I see software as a tool. What about the analogy with a carpenter… could anyone say they are a carpenter without being able to use a saw? And is the carpenter liable to be a better carpenter if he is highly proficient at using his saw?

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that I also think it difficult to separate planner/scheduler/keyboard jockey. I don’t think such roles could be carried out in isolation and those who want to practise in our discipline out to be pretty competent in all areas.

Guys

Those of us who have travelled the world for more years than we have hair left years going from project to project, having to cope not only with the whims of the client, the vagaries of people who say they are engineers, site mangers et al and those who know better will have you "do it my way" can claim to be Senior Planners and Schedulers

But you get on and do the Plan without recourse to computers and software, then you get some idea of the hard yakka needed, the depth of understanding of delivery requirements, which WILL always occur regardless of your plan. Completion WILL always occur. But for what cost and time.

Now you are on your way to understanding that all projects have their own life and most of all the politicians in the project most certainly will get the credit for your work.

But you know you are right and perhaps you are now learning that Planning is NOT about being a software jockey.

Primavera certainly doesn’t make you a planner and Primavera do not claim that the software will make you what you are not.

Scheduling too has it’s joys, but unless you know the way the maths works and you know how to create a half decent network through logic and not a Gantt, then you may be on the way.

Project Planning and Scheduling is an intellectual process. Knowing what it is that you are going to Plan and Schedule is paramount.

Some of the postings on this site have made me cry with the stupidity of them. eg "asking what is Resource scheduling about and getting many replies telling them look up a software package. ugh

Back to basics and do it properly on paper first, or if you cannot live in this electronic age without some form of equipment, use a whiteboard. Build the plan with the folk who are going to do the work, who else is going to tell you - the planner how it will be done.

Most of planning and scheduling is done initially on paper then when we know we have the answer the client is expecting, then and only then does it go into the computer.
Then the fun starts in understanding what the software did to your beautiful balanced PLan.

But then that is another story

I believe 3 years as a site engineer with manadatory discussions with foreman every day, no computer, no ac and no office will create excellent planners who really know what they are looking at

Not this, straight out of uni, into a place full of computers, carpets, women and coffee machines, bussiness cards and wellingtons with the string still on them. Having to wear a bloody suit and tie.

bah humbug

All you will produce is textbook heros or civil servants, or worst of all a university lecturer.

Bah double humbug

Hi Andy

Ignoring the rest and going back to your original posting, I agree with you 100000%. I have almost 20 years experience so yes I worked on the Dos version (missed) it is my major frustration as Lead planner on my current project I simply can not find planners, I get piles of CV’s of guys that have done a MSP course or a Primavera course but they do not have a clue and he sells himself as a senior and should be a junior at best even with some of them that have 8 years experience.

I am looking at training youngsters now and straight away the PM says send them on a Primavera course, I have refused and want the guy to do it buy hand first and grasp the concept of planning and analysing which is what is lacking.

aNDY,

I really dont want to support Charlie for his post, but he must have made this remark as he is working in UAE, where this is a fact. Rules are different for different colours of skin and thats the reason u can find all these europeans as manager only and only european young boys (age < 26) will be engineers.

That might be his frustration, as people with different ethinicity have to struggle hard to go up on the ladder even though efficiency is far better than europeans coming here.

Most of the europeans coming here are either fitter / plumber / mason / carpenter etc. Its very difficult to find technically qualified europeans in this market.

THATS LIFE!!!

Se,

In your post, I agree with you.

It is very common to find white men and native born english speaker occupying position as Project Control Manager or Planning Manager without any fundamental knowledge of there work.

At the end of the day, these managers will hire people from third world countries to do there job and these manager will tell the owner "IM THE MANAGER, SOMEONE HAS TO DO THE WORK FOR ME." Amen, Amen, Amen, Etc., Etc., Etc.,

I believe companies should give prospective candidates with hand on proficiency check in using planning software P3 only since MSP anyone can always become a planner using MSP.

My solution from my other threads is really very useful.

Cheers,

Sensei

Checked,

It works fine.

Check one more time. It shud work

http://www.primaveratools.com/tabid/136/itemid/42/Planning-versus-Schedu...

Cheers,

Check this link,

Nice article on PLANNING V/s SCHEDULING

http://www.primaveratools.com/tabid/136/itemid/42/Planning-versus-Schedu...

Cheers,

Ravi

Maybe I’ll miss you. But no PP as well, just relax.
Dieter

Hi Andy
Today is the last day before 2,5 weeks of holidays, no internet, no business phone, no business!
Just my wife and me!
Cheers
Dieter

your in Bangkok and your talking about planning

9 million was an exageration but I have seen baseline programmes of 150,000 activities.