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(1) Explain your problem, don't simply post "This isn't working". What were you doing when you faced the problem? What have you tried to resolve - did you look for a solution using "Search" ? Has it happened just once or several times?

(2) It's also good to get feedback when a solution is found, return to the original post to explain how it was resolved so that more people can also use the results.

Becoming a Planner?

161 replies [Last post]
ibrar ulhaq
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I am a graphic engineer, with a HND in computing.
I have got myself a P3 package/software, but I am not sure where to get training and how to get a job in planning!
also what the salary.. i am new to this therefore
whats the starting/ what can it go up to?
was told to get into Railways!

Replies

envision global
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Its good to read such an inforamtional post on event planning. I agree what "Angela west" has said.

Mike Testro
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Hi Angela

I assume you are replying to Gary France thread in 2005.

You may not be aware that Mr France is a world renowned planner who started the Planning Engineers Organisation.

He retired a few years back and spends most of his time touring on his motorbike.

I doubt he will pick up your comment.

Best regards

Mike Testro

Angela West
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Hello Gary, Its interesting to knew about your post.It seems that you have keen interest in event planning.According to me,To become a successful planner in starting stage few basic things keep in mind.
1)Flexibility
2)Time management
3)Passions
4)Planning should be out of the box.for that think out of the box(new thoughts,ideas)
5)Communication skills,presentation skills.Last but not the list is communication but as you explained above you have a degree in communication . So you hav eto work on basic 4 points. All the best . If you have other queries then please ask. All the best
I think this will help you for growing your business.

 

 

Thanks

Angela West

Matthew Edwards
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Dear All

We provide planning and scheduling courses to planners.

To make an enquiry about up and coming courses please email us at training@ppm5d.ie

I hope this assists the topic and individuals who need training in planning technolgy and techniques.

Regards

Matthew Edwards
ian meister
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good read! :) anymore views??...

Chris Oggham
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Hi Clive,

You and Philip are absolutely spot-on. You can’t teach the mind-set, you either have it or you don’t. If you have it, it can be developed into a truly remarkable and versatile tool.

Chris Oggham
Clive Randall
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Philip
Before you can have the mindset you must have a mind which is open to others opinions.
Software is like a car. It is not essential to drive a car to reach your destination just makes the journey easier.
I fully agree with your comments regarding some have it and some do not. To use an Irish analogy
"you can take the mind out of a planner but you cant take the mind out of planning" however good your software is.
Best regards
Clive
Clive Randall
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Philip
I agree too
Most people find a blank sheet of paper a real problem a good planner sees it as a challenge.
Its far easier to teach the software than it is to teach the mentality
Clive
Gary France
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Philip,

You are spot on. I totally agree.

Cheers,

Gary

Philip Jonker
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Hi Gary France,

My attitude is finding people with the right experience, who have planned, not as dedicated planners, but with the right experience, and teach them the software, in my opinion and a few other people involved in management the right approach. Planning is a mindset, and either you can do it , or go back to running a site. The point is certain people have the mindset and others don’t

Tegards
Gwen Blair
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At present it is a "Planners Market" so guys and gals make hay whilst the shine suns or at least until the next global recession casts a few shadows.
Sun? Now whats that again?
Se de Leon
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Hi Gwen, Clive

I agree with that. With 10 years experience, degree is not that important anymore because he has already taken his route and would have proven himself in a certain field.

I just pity those who has to contend with some employers who insist on having a certain amount of qualifications aside from his adequate experience.

Cheers,
Se
Clive Randall
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Gwen Se
I think a degree goes out of the window if you have been a planner with a good career progression for say 10 years your CV does the talking.
Clive
Gwen Blair
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Even if the position asks for a degree, there is nothing to stop you applying for the position especially if you have an edge on say expereince, working with the company or can bring some other skill the project.

I think most recruiters would agree that the degree goes out the window if you have that particular skill set, attitude or expereince the project/recruiter/client wants.

Se de Leon
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Hi Gary,

What i mean was if you look at most ads you will see that they are looking for experience and educational credentials.

I did not say they’re not looking for experience. I’m just reacting to the argument of Oscar that employers does not benchmark education but experience only. Do you believe what oscar said?

I stand by my observation that employers are asking for educational credentials also. i don’t want to argue with you on the numbers because both of our views remains as views, with no scientific proof.

Cheers,
Se
Gary France
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Se,

I cannot agree with what you have said in your post #142, when you say “I partially agree with you that employers are not totally looking for graduate people. But if you look at most ads, you can see from the job openings that they are looking for people with degree and sometimes with masteral degree, PMP, PSP cert. etc. etc.”.

I was interested in what you said, so I went and checked. I looked at the job postings in PP and I read the first random 14 advertised jobs I found (14 being the number that came up on the page I looked at). Of those 14 only 4 mentioned needing a qualification of a degree. This little bit of research (Ok only a small sample) shows that generally employers do not want degree qualified planners – they want people with experience.

I have copy and pasted the requirements below for each of the 14 jobs. The jobs with 2 stars mention a degree is needed.

Interesting eh? Experience gets my vote every time.

Gary.

1. Intermediate Construction Planner/Senior Construction Planner (-The ideal candidate will have spent at least 5 years in a construction planning position)

** 2. Intermediate P3e Planner (Degree.)

3. Planner - Thames Valley (Utilities/Water) 3 to 5+ years expertise working within a planning or project controls position

** 4. Construction Planner – Residential (You will need to be of degree calibre and have 4+ yeas in a project planning environment. You will have ideally come from an engineering background and moved into a project planning role more recently in the construction sector)

5. Senior Construction Planner/City based (The candidate must have previous site experience)

6. Construction Planners/Various UK locations (experience in a construction environment)

7. Project Planner PFI/Health Sectors (To apply you need to have a solid grounding in project planning)

8. Junior Planner (You will have over 2 years planning experience)

** 9. Junior Planner (You will also be educated to degree level)

10. Claims Consultant - Central London (To apply you need to have 10+ years experience ideally in a consultancy environment and have experience with Delay Analysis and producing expert witness reports.)

** 11. Urgent - Planners (Oil & Gas/Utilities/Water exp) (HNC/HND/BSc. or equivalent education)

12. Planning Consultant required - Portsmouth area (previous Construction experience gained from a building contractor with previous site planning experience.)

13. Planning Engineer contract MIDLANDS (MS PROJECT (recent) essential, heavy engineering, ideally exposure to P3.)

14. Intermediate Construction Planner, Liverpool (3 + years Project Planning Experience)
Gary France
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Gwen,

Please don’t tell me the TV programme I referred to is the project you are working on – that would be too funny! Oh well, I guess you are right – prefabricate it somewhere else and sail it up. I can see what you mean about pressure is on to meet sailaway day and the impact that must have on trying to get everything finished before then – finishing at sea must not be fun.

As you say, frantic – great fun – just like the project I am working on at present. A big job for London with an immovable deadline in 2012!! Different from working in the cold with tight commercial deadlines, but working with the Government has its challenges too.

Cheers,

Gary.
Oscar Wilde
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Se
You need to get off the fence
you are either a planner which I believe you are or you are a political animal I believe you dont care so much for quals but a lot for the common sense
Whats it to be
planner or spin
you seem to have less spin
so go for it
tell us who you are
come out like Gary
Oscar
Oscar Wilde
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Now i reckon Gwen is a real planner you can smell the words she writes
[Deleted by Moderatoe]
Oscar
Se de Leon
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Hi Clive,

Maybe we should be talking more on a general sense and not specific in this issue of qualifications. I understand your point about repeat requests from client.

On the lawyers, in my opinion i find specialists are in a better position to answer specialty subjects/cases but of course guided always by lawyers.

Se
Clive Randall
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Se
on the subject of lawyers
they have no degree in planning or construction generally but often reprsent the most complex cases in court.
Often when the so called experts with qualifications have [Deleted by Moderator.]
Any thoughts on how they do that???????????
Clive
Clive Randall
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Se
Conceited as this may be
I dont think I would answer an add
I would pick up a phone
you know phone a freind?????
Thats what you get when people know who you are and what you can do.
Bit like a contractors repeat business philosophy satisfy the customer.
As to education I dont undersestimate it, what I am saying is not all education is formal it comes some of it from the school of hard knocks and life.
After all you dont need a degree to get married or buy a house and they are the biggest decisions you ever take.
However its usefull to seek out a lawyer who is reccommended to you if it goes wrong, who may not have the best qualifications but if his winning record is good hes the one to go with.
Clive
Se de Leon
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Hi Chris,

Well that’s the signal I got(underestimating value of education) from the previous posts maybe you should ask the others like Clive and Oscar.

I partially agree with you that employers are not totally looking for graduate people. But if you look at most ads, you can see from the job openings that they are looking for people with degree and sometimes with masteral degree, PMP, PSP cert. etc. etc. I’m not saying it should be the case always. But that’s reality.

I’m just speaking from what I can see. Just look around the openings in Planningplanet, you will see what I’m trying to say.

Cheers,
Se
Gwen Blair
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Gary,

Presently on Snohvit. See www.staoil.com. Modules were built in Flanders and the barge in NW Spain, process mods in Cadiz. You are correct. Sailed it up, docked it into dry dock, shut the doors, backfilled. Project more or less approaching Mechanical Completion stage.
Site is an island off an island about 2 hours drive from the North Cape. Stunning scenery.
Previous to this on the Gorgon NW Shelf OZ LNG plant on Barrow Island (Class A nature reserve and Maritime Park) Still in Detailed Design stage and going to Finiancial Investment Decision Date 2006. Cant build offshore, tornado alley, building on Barrow Island so they can reinject CO2 into old oil reservoirs.
IMHO modules the only way to go in remote locations and or harsh weather environments.
You are correct in that there has been much debate in putting LNG plants offshore in the States, vey much a NIMBY syndrome. Now thre is a subject to debate!

One of my main beefs is in past expereince is FPSOs, modules etc is that sailaway day is never missed (due to dockyards slots)and construcion continues en route as they play catch up. Mech completion and Commissioning get the squeeze between contruction delays and hitting the Clients 1st oil and or gas. Makes life interesting and at times frantic! Would not have it any other way.
Slange!
Chris Oggham
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Se, I don’t think anyone is underestimating the value of education. It’s just being pointed out that education doesn’t only take place in schools and universites. It also happens on building sites, workshops and shipyards. As for qualifications, it depends on what you mean. As Clive demonstrated in post #136, qualification means having the necessary mental and physical attributes to do the job. Many employers have found to their cost that formal qualifications (university degrees etc.) don’t always guarantee this, sometimes they mean that the person just has the ability to pass exams. Chris Oggham
Clive Randall
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Charlie
Just reread your posting re outer space production rates are you there now
Clive
Se de Leon
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Clive,

I don’t underestimate the value of education.
Sorry to disagree with you on some of the qualifications.

Se
Clive Randall
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Oscar
You have wound up the barrel organ
Clive
Clive Randall
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Se
My add would read
"Well rounded person required with excellent communication skills.
Able to think independently and manage subordinates.
Extensive experience required of the planning role including site experience preferably with a major contractor.
Use of software such as P3, MS project, powerproject, powerpoint, excel etc not required as training will be provided, however candidates with this experience will be considered favourably.
Candidates must be commercially aware and have a sound site engineering background.
Willing to work long hours in difficult environments.
Degree not essential, however references will be required."

Just a thought
as Einstein said "Education is what you are left with when you have forgotten what you learnt at school"

Degree or not to degree that is the question????

As long as the definition of an Engineer is protected by degree holders, free thinkers will go elsewhere, where their talents are better rewarded. Qualifications are often established not to measure apptitude but to protect existing encumbents.
I for one would never reject a candidate who is not formally qualified, I will leave that to those who look behind them rather than in front.
Captain hook is the crocodile coming?
Clive
Se de Leon
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To Oscar again

Have you encountered a classified ads that reads like this:

Wanted Senior Planner:

qualifications: No need to be a graduate of any course. Just demonstrate your ability to think.

Haha.

Are you kiddin me? Don’t go that far. Look at the classified ads in Planningplanet you will see what I mean.

How can you say employers are not considering educational background?

As much as I don’t underestimate the value of experience, I also don’t underestimate the value of education.

Se
Se de Leon
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Oscar,

Really??? Tell that to the fu$##&& marines.

C’mon get real. Stop this argument that thinking because you have the experience is better than having a degree. In the first place you don’t know how we were trained in school so you better leave your opinion about the educational system of your country to your own. Friendly advise, keep it to yourself. it doesn’t apply to me.

Please go back to reply #60, that is the summary of my stand regarding the matter in case you have not read it.

Se
Gary France
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Gwen,

This is not really my bag, but you job sounds like quite a challenge. Whilst I know very little about LNG terminals, from what I do know it seems to me that there are two distinct issues with the impact of such terminals on the environment. Firstly, the design of the system – open loop and closed loop have considerably different environmental impacts (depending on how close to the shore they are) and of course very different price tags that accompany them. Second, how to undertake the construction.

It seems to me that if constructing the terminals in such a sensitive environment is so challenging, that doing as much prefabrication as possible off site in less sensitive areas is the key. Ok, this depends on so many factors such as additional cost, how large the terminals are, depth of water, sea conditions, the nature of the client and their environmental position, so it is difficult to try to give an overall answer. It does however seem that if your weather conditions are so extreme, why not build it somewhere else in better weather conditions and in a less sensitive environment and then transport it – might be extreme, but it might be more cost effective than building in such a hostile environment?

Or, am I missing the point? You talk of a maritime park so I assume your terminals are at sea. I saw a tv programme (Ok, not always the best of sources, but it was fascinating to watch) recently about such a process terminal that was completely pre-fabricated in one location (Spain maybe?) on a series of massive barges and them moved many thousands(?) of miles and then positioned where it was needed.

Is this an option?

This is what I find so fascinating about planning and why people should seriously consider becoming a planner – you get to deal with issues like these. Even if my ideas are about as useful as designing a bicycle that a fish could ride, it’s the sheer fun of trying to solve the problem. Fantastic!

Regards,

Gary (What I don’t know about LNG you could write on a football pitch) France
Gary France
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Charlie,

Your post #122.

Surely one of the principles of good management is to abandon old fashioned methods like knowing the division of work and the person who is responsible to do what work. Surely it is better to have a team of people who work together to solve a problem, no matter what their title is or what they are responsible for.

For example, as a planning director I am prepared to do whatever it takes to get the right end result. Putting people into boxes and only expecting them to do that piece of work they are responsible for stifles growth and innovation. It also frustrates people enormously.

If somebody in my team is very busy with a problem, I will offer to help them. If I had one, it wouldn’t be in my job description to assist them with doing some detail for them, or even making their coffee for them, but I would (and do) do both if it is what is needed.

There is nothing wrong with fraternization between supervisors and those that work for them. Far from creating an ineffective chain of command or leadership, it promotes teamwork, makes for a better working relationship and gets the best out of people. As a leader, I would do almost anything for my team, because I expect them to do the same for me.

As for your view that “If a person is qualified to do planning then due respect to that person must be in place” I couldn’t disagree more for as you know, my view is that qualifications have absolutely nothing to do with ability. As Clive says, having a degree is no benchmark. Respect is earned from individuals, not given because of a framed certificate on the wall.

Hopefully one day you and I will be able to agree on something!

All the best,

Gary.
Oscar Wilde
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Well my dear Charlie and Se
Rather got your naughty bits in the mangle here
Seems like those that employ the people dont consider a degree is a benchmark but the ability to think is
Strange that
More from Oscar later been on R&R
Sorry about that
PS Charlie Stop Think :Listen bit like the planners green cross code
And the final point in the chain is who would I employ
Perhaps Gwen Gary Clive and Philip as they are on the lookout could advise dont think you need to send your CV,s if your name appears above despite being unwilling to answer the questions because its not an interview
Over an out
big green alien labourer.
Gwen Blair
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Excellent idea. The originator has, perhaps, seem the requirement for pychoanalysts and gone down that route.

Regardless, any norms for construction of LNG terminals in remote locations with exteme weather conditons in a Class A nature reserve and maritime park welcomed.
Daya Sugunasingha
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Adil

It has been answered by many people.

It would be good if Mr. Ibrar Ulhaq could let us know if he was successful in moving into planning.
The debate has however progressed into very interesting topics. Surely you are not complaining? ah
Daya
Adil Gibreel
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Dear All

Just a reminder, this thread started as follows

ibrar ulhaq posted his questions:
"I am a graphic engineer, with a HND in computing.
I have got myself a P3 package/software, but I am not sure where to get training and how to get a job in planning!
also what the salary.. i am new to this therefore
whats the starting/ what can it go up to?
was told to get into Railways! "

Where are we now?
Gwen Blair
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Charles,

I marvel as the norms you own.
Can I have a copy of the following norms please.

1. Construction work in Artic conditions 70 degrees N with a project that had CO2 reinjection.
2. Construction work on Australian NW Shelf Island on a Class A nature reserve. All incoming personnel, food, containers, equipment, drilling rigs, bulks,gravels and modules from Oz mainland and Far East or in Ozs case the Near East have to be quarantined in order to protect the flora, fauna and sub strata fauna. Also the norms for turtle breeding seasons, migratory flight paths for various indigenous birds, same for whales. Also any norms for the likehood of bringing in any organisms of tankers, flotels and delivery barges to such a Class A nature reserve and Maritime National park.

Many thanks

Gwen
Daya Sugunasingha
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Philip
I am not on the look out for a job and enjoying a position as a senior-planning manager with one of the largest global project management companies, who I have been with for the last 20 years.
I wish you the best of luck in your recruitment drive.
Daya
Daya Sugunasingha
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Charlie,

Your secret on how you become a planner can remain a secret as far as I am concerned. The question only arose when you linked your degree to a qualification as a planner.

I have read all your comments to help others with planning problems and queries and I have been able to assess how you have reached your current position.

I would still like you to explain you posting #90 with reference to Colonialism etc etc

Daya
Philip Jonker
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Hi,

Forgot your name, thanks for refering people to me
Charleston-Joseph...
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To my peers in PP,

I’ll stick with the basics: laborers as planners is a no no to me in construction.

One of the fundamentals in management is organizational chart, that is to know the division of work and the person responsible to work. Laborers have their place in construction.

If a person is qualified to do planning then due respect to that person must be in place and such, the person category should be changed to planner.

It is also very dangerous to consider laborers as planners. Tha chargehand will have second tought in giving instruction to laborers. There will be fraternization between supervisors and rank and file to the point of ineffective chain of command or leadership.

It is just a simple no no for laborers as planners. I know this because i was a labor pusher before.

IMHO, Charlie
Charleston-Joseph...
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To Clive,

I really feel insulted with your query. How can you treat me like a students asking me to answer such question. I also did not apply for job in your company so you cannot impose on me to answer your question.

Your question also has no meaning to me. Those productivity rates that you have in mind maybe applicable from one labourer working in a particular project. It has no meaning to me because I worked in internationa and multinational setting.

I always evaluated manhours rates base on project specific: the country i worked (PNG, KSA, MAL, etc,.) In multinational setting, i have to consider the diferent nationalities of workers in arriving at manhour productivity rates: case study workers from one country with productivity rates of XXX combined with workers from another country with productivity rates of YYY will on the average will have a productivity rates of ZZZ.

I have no choice but to disregard your question. I hope you understand.

The manpower norms in my possesion is applicable anywhere in the world including construction work in outer space (astronauts, cosmonauts, etc. working in international space station like fixing some parts of the station or someday it will be applicable when man start to construct high rise building in Mars or any plannet in the Universe.

Where to find this manpower norms: i will give a hint (ask Bernard).

I’m really sorry i did not answer your question.

Charlie
Charleston-Joseph...
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To Daya,

My secret on how I become a planner remains a secrets.

Only prospective employers, my employers, my previous employers, other persons i have personal contact with that i have confidence will know HOW I BECOME A PLANNER.

I hope you know the word "CONFIDENTIAL".

I just can’t reveal who am I to anyone, including anonymous people. I’m a private person and my only wish is for my privacy to be respective. I also offer you same treatment, I dont impose on you to reveal yourself.

It is preferable to respect the privacy of our peers in Planning Planet.

Best Regards,

Charlie
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello to all,

Including the Aliens in Planning Planet.

Actually we can live together in harmony as long as we know our place in planning planet and living with the forum rules and guidelines. The bottom line is live and lets live.

I’m not the bad guy. I just stand on my principle, belief and values.

I really touch by the story of Gary and Clive. I keep silence because i dont want to show disrespect of the person they are now.

How I wish that this thread may end on that post where the wonderful experience this Gary and Clive were revealed.

But faith have it that we will not be sentimental and continue to rock and roll planning planet.

So, I will answer each to the best I can.

Cheers
Gwen Blair
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What is sure that the definition, scope, attitude, work experience and education of ALL planners vary.
Considering Charles has made some trajectory/off the wall comments/opinions, which he quite entitled to, further clarification has been requested.

I think the majority of contributers to this thread await, with bated breath, the response from Charles.
I certainly do!

Adil Gibreel
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Cive

Although I am a civil engineer with over 25 years experience, I still don’t see a problem with someone without a degree to be a good planner provided that he worked hard to achieve this. So not every labouror will make a good planner. Many who has graduated from universities and holding engineering degres are not good engineers either, but to be an engineer you have to have a degree. To be a planner you have to have the knowledge of what you are planning, that is why a labouror may make a good planner. Not EVERY labouror.

My proposal to put an end to this discussion is still open, let us be productive and useful to those who are interested to be good planners and I am one of them and this is the reason of my being here. I think I have read many great discussions and contributions (in other categories) from you Clive and the other guys who do not believe in labouror as planners. So why do you waste your time in this endless debate. No one will convince the other at the end of the day ( I may be wrong )
Clive Randall
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I hear what you say but this discussion topic has received a huge number of postings so is obviously going somwhere.
By the way you have not expressed an opinion, what do you think makes a good planner.
Alien Labourer
Adil Gibreel
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Gentlemen
I think this discussion is leading to nowhere, we are here to enrich everyone experience and shae what ever we have gained during our long working career.
I do request you to stop this and let us start a fruitful discussion

Regars
Chris Oggham
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Clive,

Totally agree. You said what I wanted to say, but better.

Chris Oggham
(Another Alien Labourer)
Charleston-Joseph...
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To Darell,

I did not set the standard. I’m only a simple employee earning an honest living doing honest work. I’m no big name in construction

It is the industry that set the standard. The client set the standard. The client prefer to have planning engineers with degree in planning.

With regards to pay, salary, etc. it is also the client that set the standard. The client is willing to pay the right price to the qualified individual.

I cannot offer you anything because im only an worker, i have no money to offer to you.

Why don’t you try Philip? or ask Philip the compensation package same as you ask me.

Yours, Charlie
Clive Randall
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[Deleted by Moderator]
Still waiting for an answer to my questions.
[Deleted by Moderator]
what is all this [deleted by Moderator] about colonisation. This is from a man who believes Mcarther was the best planner ever. Of course the philipines was colonised by America so how does your logic work [deleted by Moderator].
[Deleted by Moderator]

Best regards
The Alien labourer
Darrell ODea
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Charles,

Sorry about delayed response........

It seems to me you set to high a standard for anyone to reach. Methinks that most "so called Planners" would never qualify for "your profile". Then again, why don’t you stipulate what the profile would be? The exact qualifications, qualities, experience etc..............
This is a serious request.

Then perhaps we could all judge for ourselves, if it is really worth our while applying.

Alongside that, tells us what package you would be willing to offer "The Qualified Planner".

i.e. Relocation Package, Wage, Bonus, Pension, Expenses, Car, Laptop, Phone, Promotion/demotion Prospects, etc. etc.

Then we can decide if it is worth staying with our/my Labouring job.

Respect,

Darrell

Philip Jonker
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Hi Daya,

Instead of being funny, name some real planners, I would like to employ them, they are not common gardener animals, but special, anybody out there who think they can meeet the profile send your name.

regards

Philip
Daya Sugunasingha
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My Dear Charleston-Joseph Orbe (Building Works)

I have gone back to your posting #90 again in the hope of trying to unravel the mystery hidden within and still could not understand what you were trying to convey.

Is it another one of your SECRETS?

I wondered if your wild and lunatic ranting about colonial masters, decaying empires, history, my grievances of former colonial masters etc was meant to give offence, is so, you have failed because it has no relevance to my experience at all.
Kind Regards
Daya
Se de Leon
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Hi Gary,

The perfect example of reply #60 is Monsieur Clive.

I hope I’ve answered your question i.e. if I will not give a chance to a a laborer to become a planner.

And I also hope that we’re not underestimating the value of education in this site. I think we’re not.

Cheers to the real planners,

SE

P.S. I should have started my answer with my 1 liner(I agree 100% with you) but did not.
Clive Randall
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Gary
When u get to Hong Kong next give me a call I will set one up on the bar
Clive
Daya Sugunasingha
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Edgar
You could not have met a "Real Planner" I suspect
DS
Edgar Ariete
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Never wanted to be one. Carpenters are better.

Planners never hit their Targets. Carpenters seldom miss, otherwise they’ll get dead fingernails...

for a break
Daya Sugunasingha
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Hi Sigfredo
Thanks
Went back to #60 and we don’t have a disagreement
Daya
Daya Sugunasingha
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Charleston
I am totally lost with your introduction of colonialism into becomming a Planner??
Daya
Clive Randall
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ok missed that
Clive
Gwen Blair
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Clive,

A cross thread reference!
Clive Randall
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One of the problems with universities is they teach you what other people think
They often do not teach you how to think
Graduate or not planning is a mindset most of which is never taught at a university

One for you Charlie how many bricks in a pallet
How many tiles in a box
How long is a length of rebar and how many 50mm bars do you get to a tonne
Could you lift a 50mm bar yourself and if not how many people will it take
Do you know what a screw nail is
How long does it take to do a FPW on a 125mm steel plate is their any special requirements.

If you cant answer ALL of the above you will need help and the hands on worker will know the answer.

With a HND in Civils and a dgree in building management plus 25 years of experience after graduation I still rely heavily on what I learnt on the tools because most of that which I learnt at college I have forgotten because I have never used it.

Finally before there were computers there were planners but General foreman did a great deal of the planning and look at the buildings roads railways factories and the like that were built. Many in our industry dont see the value of a planner. Our task is to explain what it is, getting down and dirty will give you skills the biggest of which will be comminication.

Rule 1 If you dont listen dont talk.

I will say once again I am a Planner that started as a labourer and learnt about the work to be done. Yes I graduated and yes I am now the planning manager for a company that turns over US$1 billion a year but I still talk to the guys at the sharp end and I believe I am able to find the sticky bits in most jobs and work around a solution which I get people to buy into before I publish. I am not the brains or an alien just a down to earth practical planner.

So I did start as a labourer is that QED

Clive
Leong Hong Phua
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Agreed with Gary.

The Snr Project Manager I am working for started off as a welder. He told me that he was very lucky that he was guided along his career development. I personally think that opportunity is one of the important factor in order to develop into a planner. Without the work opportunities or the people that inspire / provide guidance, I would not grow into a planner.
Clive Randall
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Gwen
Blows up sheep and anchors
Not in the loop here
Clive
Gary France
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Sigredo,

I have been back to posting #60.

OK, I think I get what you are saying. You are saying that you would give a labourer a chance as a planner if he showed potential, (by climbing the ladder) say as a ganger as Clive says in post 59. I agree with you.

Are you therefore saying that you wouldn’t give just a humble labourer a chance, just because they are mixing cement, or carrying bricks? If so, I might need to take issue with you on this. That humble brick carrying labourer probably knows more about how many bricks get laid in an hour than you or I would ever know. So yes, I would at least consider giving him a job as a junior planner programming brickwork on a large project with many bricks to lay.

Saying that, I do take your point – there are some labourers who would never have the education to become a planner. It is a sad fact that many labourers cannot read and write, so in that instance, I couldn’t offer him a job, even as a data entry planner.

It was good to revisit post 60, for it gave me the chance to re-read Clive’s post number 59. I am glad to see yet another planner who started life as a labourer! The next time I am in Hong Kong, I am going to seek Clive out and buy him a drink or two, or seven. We could swap old site stories with each other.

Cheers.

Gary
Se de Leon
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Gary,

Thanks for the reply.

That is precisely my stand. Please go back to reply # 60

Cheers,

Se
Gary France
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Hi Sigfredo,

Yes, we would accept labourers in the PEO. Of course we would. They would probably need to join as an associate member, the criteria of which is “For those planners/schedulers with less than 5 years experience in planning/scheduling, or for those whose work means they occasionally undertake a planning/scheduling function as part of their job.” As long as they were doing some sort of planning, why would we refuse them? Some (and I would of course agree not all) would have something to offer and we might have much to offer them.

Alternatively, they could join as a student member – just like I would have done when I was young, except there was no such organisation back then. However, we haven’t had any applications from labourers, but we all have to start somewhere.

Indeed we may well have members who used to be labourers. Many people do some casual work doing labouring who then go onto other and better things. I say good luck to them. Take Gwen’s children for example - she says they did some labouring before moving on in their chosen profession - its really not that uncommon. In the PEO we wouldn’t refuse membership just because somebody used to be a labourer!

Regarding your question about combining P3 3.1 and P3 ec together in the survey, in hindsight, we made a mistake. It would have been better if we had kept them separate.

Cheers.

Gary
Se de Leon
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Hi Daya,

That is precisely my point in reply no. 60 of this thread when you said "But I hope that they were not destined labouring for the rest of their lives."

Even the answer of Gary when he said laborers can be planners. it does not stop with just being laborer to become a planner. There is more to it.

This is also the reason why I insisted on defining the job description of laborer to stop the obvious misunderstandings in this thread.

Cheers,

Se

Gary France
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Hi Charlie,

I know you like to keep secrets, but I am going to share one with you. Don’t pass it on to too many people though! You will need to get to the end of this posting before you find out what it is though. I don’t mind sharing with you, because it is about time I “came out”.

Yes, I am a planner and no, nobody got to my profile. I have been a planner for 31 years – I have tried to give it up, but (Oh the shame of it) I just cannot – Betty Ford tried to help me, but I just keep regressing!

Yes, I am a group board director of Mace and yes, I guess that makes me one of the big guys. I am responsible for all of our pre-construction work (planning, logistics, project strategy, temporary works, design management etc). Yes, it’s true; a mere planner can make it quite a long way. However, before anybody suggests to the contrary, I still do hands on planning! It is a fault I know – I should delegate more, but shucks, I just love planning!

And yes, I am the Chairman of the PEO. You see Charlie; I am a die hard planner. I know that good planning really can make a difference. I regularly can be seen drawing programmes and you know what – I sometimes use PM software for this and even excel! (Oh dear, yet another admission).

And yes, before other PP’ers jump on my back, I also have to admit I have also done some expert witness work. From postings in other threads, I know that the real planners out there will consider this the ultimate sin, but what the heck – I can admit it. I have broad shoulders. Just take me outside and give me a damn good thrashing!

I say these things not to boast, but to make a point. Many planners I meet ask me about my career, why didn’t I go into project management, how did I as a planner make it to where I am today etc etc. The simple answer is that I like planning and I stuck with it. As most planners do, I worked very hard. I have worked on some huge projects and I did what I am good at – making very complicated things simple (whey hey – no 40,000 activity programmes for me!). These days I am very lucky – I get to work on some of the biggest, most exciting construction projects all over the world. Hard working? Yes. Very long hours? Yes. An understanding wife? Yes. Lucky? Without a doubt. Destined to keel over from a heart attack? Probably. All of the above.

You see, something in my genes makes me quite good at joining things together with arrows. I like to draw complicated programmes to work out in detail how things should be done, then I hide that from everybody and then draw a much simpler diagram to help communicate things simply. Do you know what? People, especially clients, seem to like that!! I learnt a long time ago that people hate P3, Artemis, Powerproject, Suretrack, Openplan and all the other ways of making something complicated even more complicated. They simply want to understand. (OK, I am ranting on now, so I will stop).

OK Charlie, it’s time for the secret. Keep it quiet though……

It’s very hard for me to admit it, but …… I have a lump in my throat as I am typing this.....

I started work at 16 years old. I didn’t pass many school examinations. I started work on site as.....wait for it..... A LABOURER! There, I have said it. No more hiding the truth. You have outed me at last. . I feel much better now!

So Charlie, there it is. A labourer can be a planner.

Please don’t ever put down labourers again. You do yourself an injustice whenever you do that.

Gary France

Se de Leon
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Hi Gwen,

Do not worry, the feeling is mutual.

Gary,

Kindly answer the question of Charleston. Maybe this is one way to stop some of the melodramatic arguments thrown in this thread. Do PEO accept laborers as planners?

Maybe this will stop also the one liner answer such as "i agree with you 100%" answers. ha ha ha.

Please include also the answer to my question long time ago why PEO combined the users for P3 3.1 and P3 ec in their survey.

Let us get real guys.

Cheers,

Se
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello there Mr Gary France,

Are you the chairman of PEO, one of the big guys of MACE, etc. or someone got inside your profile???

As you are aware, PEO got stringent standard in accepting members. In your previous post you did specify the qualities of accepting members.

MACE is a well know consulting company engage in project management.

Are you accepting labourers as planners. Please be serious.

Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello to someone,

I really dont think that you got field experience.

After graduation, i taught in university. After three years, I decided to join construction project. My first job is running a gang of labourer doing manual mix of concrete and placing concrete. I was designated the labor pusher. And i did push my laborers to the limit of their physical endurance. My labourers dont think, I think for them including the process, the timings and they follow my command. Eventually my boss got confidence in my ability to move people around and got things done that I lead a gang of trademens, carpenters, steelmen (rebar fixers) masons, etc.

The essence of my leadership was to ensure no one was idle and that all my people are dong things right the first time. And, that needs planning, planning on what to do, what to do next, etc.

For me, labourers or trademens are resources,just like me (a planner or whatever was my position before) to attain project goals. Each person got their own place in construction and each got to do there job.

Whatever exposition or brainstorming regarding labourer as planner is alien to me. I was not brought up this way.

I believe you also got your own story to tell regarding labourer as planner. You got your right to tell it here but straight away my message is "I dont agree".

Cheers,

charlie

Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello Daya,

I dont know what your trying to reach out with the real situation of labourers with master degree.

And then, we have planners that comes from the rank of labourers.

I think what really happens is an extension of colonialism where your colonial master who is a labourer became the chargehand and eventually the planner. In my sojourn in this world, this happen only in some decaying empire. This is also the fault of some nation who really did not fight for their freedom. You just read history and the cycle keep repeating. And there are a lot of them.

However this is not the proper forum to expound your grievances of former colonial master. You are lost.

The bottom line is that labourers have their place in construction. We need them to run the construction project. They are part of the construction project team. But to make the labourers the planner is a joke.

I did read about labourers that rise up from their ranks but mostly this are fantasy, fictions, love story, example the of book is "THE FOUNTAINHEAD by Ann Ryan".

Of course there are real people that start from labourer and rise to become millionaire, influential men, powerful men, etc., but this is not what we are talking about.

Whatever happen to your labourer friends with master degree, i can only wish them success in whatever they are doing now.

Cheers,

Charlie
Pedrito Salamat
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Dear All,

Please do not misunderstood me...and I never under estimate Labourers and truly I respect them since I get also some ideas from them. I am just straight forward and honest to myself, maybe I just follow the common standard as ISO do.

My deep apologies to the labourers ,,but I cheers to the REAL PLANNERS....

Pedrito
Gwen Blair
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Gary,
Why thank you kind sir! I feel compelled to join you and state that I too did not graduate. With a robust CV, never being out of work and being able to pick and choose where and for whom I work next, I must be doing somthing right.

Saying that I frog marched my own kids to Uni and fell off my perch when both of them graduated BSc Hons. However their attitude was that the hard work was over, Employers employ me! Not!
After a spell hands on labouring which did them the world of good for getting involved with the nuts and bolts of their choosen professions, exposed to multi nationals, integrated team spirit, getting the best out of sloths and grouchers they are, at least, pointed in the right direction. No, not plannng!
Worked with Clive Spakman and John Hart ealier this year. Your name came up then.

Slange
Daya Sugunasingha
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Hi Sigfredo

"Nice one Charleston. Secret. ha ha ha and a big ha"

How can you give applause to Charlie for answering a simple question such as; How did gaining a civil engineering degree make you a P3 Planner? With "SECRET" And the thought that his company employed a labourer as a planner made him "Vomit"?

I thought to myself "this guy is not interested in a discussion if he can end it with "SECRET"

It did however provoke many of you to comment, some sarcastically, some silly, some off the point, some intelligently constructively.

OK! I do agree that the definition of a labourer may differ between each of us.
You say, " What may be a labourer for you may already be a field superintendent for some".
Yes I agree with that statement.

I was asked what a labourer on my site actually does.
The answer would have been "probably the same as on your site".

You also ask me to firstly define the job description of labourer before I react.
Well! To me a labourer is some one whose job is mainly of a physically nature, but he still has a brain in his head and he may or may not have had an education. Most of them would not wish to sit at a desk or computer trying to work out how someone else should carry out a task, but some may and possibly be better at it then you, because you have a degree.

I have however had labourers on some of my previous sites who have had masters degrees and worked as labourers because their degrees were not recognised in this country (UK) and also their command of the English Language was very poor. I do not know if either of them became PPP planners on not.
But I hope that they were not destined labouring for the rest of their lives.

Regards
Daya
Gary France
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Gwen,

Totally agree. My list of people to work alongside probably would include somebody who buys blow up sheep and anchors. Not sure about the beard though.

Gary
Gary France
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Oh dear Charlie,

How can you say “I’m a graduate civil engineer and anyone below this standard and professing he as a planner is out of my class.”

As many people have said, anybody can plan. We all do it a lot without realising it.

In my years of meeting and working with probably hundreds of planners, those with practical hands on experience generally make better planners than those with degrees. Yes I know I shouldn’t generalise, but that is my experience. Somebody working as an operative on site (even a labourer!) knows far more about how to do the job they are experienced in than a graduate and they are therefore in a much better position to be able to plan that type of work than somebody who has only studied it. They might not have the ability to set out their planning work well due to their level of general education as well as a graduate might, but this should not exclude them from the chance of trying to become a planner.

I have to declare here that personally, I am not a graduate, and so your class is obviously well above mine and therefore I might not be qualified to make such a judgment.

Humbly yours,

Gary France
Gwen Blair
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One thing great about this thread and Planning Plant, I know who I would prefer to work alongside and who, if their names were mentioned I would be either be jacking up my day rate or running like Hell!
Se de Leon
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Hi Daya,

One more thing. Stop assuming that I have no respect for these people. You don’t know how I work. We are just arguing on this thread and nothing else. If my arguments sent you a wrong signal, then don’t put words into my mouth. That’s the reason why planningplanet have a PM i.e. to clarify things.

I should have PM this but decided not to.

Se
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi Se,

I think Planning Planet is infiltrated by aliens (Labourers disguise as Planersr). I know the way they post there thread, the way they make impersonating of real people.

The biggest losers are the one converted to aliens belief that labourers can do planning in EPC Project in Oil/Gas Industry or Higly built-up High Rise Mixed Residential/Office Buildings, in Metro Rail Porjects or heavy civil construction projects like dams construction, etc.

But like all aliens movies, the real heros (real planners/planning engineers) will survive the struggle because there are essential human character of dignity. And the aliens (labourers) will just go there their place in construction projects, mixing cement, excavating with picks and shovels, etc.

For the aliens go on converting other members but i find in Se a partner in our struggle. Of course there are a lot of them in PP but at the moment they just want to watch in the sideline until it is clear that the real planners will win the day and join the fray. Dont worry Se we have a lot of friends, i know i can count on Bill or Vladimir. Philip is really a disappointment.

Cheers,

Charlie

Se de Leon
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Nice one Charleston. Secret. ha ha ha and a big ha

Hi Daya,

It matters what the laborer does because most of the arguments being raised that a laborer can be a planner or somebody who has the experience can be a planner are all subjective. It’s hard to react to a certain argument if we don’t agree on the very basic job description of laborer. For me it’s quite insulting that a laborer(my definition of laborer) can take my place as planner. Please define first the job description of laborer before you react, s’il vous plait.

What may be a laborer for you may already be a field superintendent for some.

This thread has become so subjective so please let’s clarifiy things first.

Charleston, you should be on the lookout. The one mixing concrete on your jobsite might one day replace you. Easily, that could be at the minimum 100 candidates. Give us a break.

Cheers,

Se
Gwen Blair
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Totally agree.
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

You guys can argue all tou want, but planning is a mindset, and anybody can do it. It is simply a mstter of explaining your thoughts on paper, so a labourer can do it, if he understands the methodology and the after effects, and the paper trail
Gwen Blair
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Regardless of education you cant beat bums on seat site expereince, on the tools or as the planner. If you can motivate, delegate, organise, communicate, have a can do attitude and a sense of humour all in a multi national project (we have 46 different nationalities on Snohvit)that goes a long way in any planning job.
You can have a string of degrees and black trades expereince behind you, be a P3 purist but if you cant quickly scope out your part of the job, think on your feet, take instruction (and a Hell of a lot of well qualified people cannot)or a brief you are a loss.
I disagree the Planner is the brains of the project. I am sure the Project Director, Manager and Discipline Leads would be laughing like drains. I would compare the Planner as the Catalyst, capable of promoting change, adding value sometimes not.
Darrell ODea
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Charleston,

Apologies, will go out and do the decent thing, will go out and graduate as a civil engineer. Havn’t got your extremely high levels of Civil qualifications. Civil being the operative word.

Sorry dont even come from a trades background. Am just an old site labourer, whom had a bit of luck along the way, and met some people that showed me how to do a bit of planning. Does this count for qualification?

What exactly is doing the right thing? You never clarified?
Perhaps you assisted or coached "the labourers" in a useful and proactive way. Brought your experience & high levels of qualifications to bear and trained them up to your level of "Professionalism". Perhaps you recognised their talents & decided to pay for them to get "Propper Qualifications"?

I know you maintained your dignity & of course the dignity of all planners, by doing the "Right Thing", but if you colud elaborate please????????

Respect,

Darrell
Charleston-Joseph...
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Daya,

SECRET.

Cheers
Daya Sugunasingha
User offline. Last seen 13 years 38 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 99
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Dear Charlie
How did gaining a civil engineering degree make you a P3 Planner?
DS