Dear Sigfredo

What does it matter what the labour does!

The point is the this labourer or other specialist may have a lot of useful knowledge which you have no respect for.

But to debate the point. Let us consider a labourer ganger of a team of micro-tunnellers constructing 1000m length of underground pipeline.

If you have never experienced the process of micro-tunnelling you would not know how to plan it.

But you could talk to him and glean information to put a programme.

Regards
Daya

Dear Pedrito Salamat
Why are you so disturbed by the suggestion that a labourer can become a planner?
It depends on what you think a Planner is. Is he one that knows to use some planning software? Or is he one that understands the sequence logic and durations for the resourses he has to hand? Is he one that understand the legal implications involved in trying to get a project of the ground?
Now, you seem to have adequate experience in the petro-chemical industry and also understand the gist of various contracts, but would you be able to plan something totally unknown to you. And if not would you be less of a planner?

You could only plan, if you understand the process of this new project. You could talk to people that know the details to find out.

This person may be a labourer, who has the intermite detail about how to do it because he has hands on experience. He has planned out how best to do the job. He has worked what tools and plant he requites to do the job efficiently. He knows through the time it would take to do the job. He knows if he is able to do the job himself or if he needs more people to help him. He knows the promlems that he may encounter and how to get over it. He knows a lot more about the process then you do.

I agree that he will have to learn about how communicate his programme or plan to others and he will need to present it in a format that others have accepted as the norm.

So don’t run down the labourers of this world. It is not the job title that matters but the clear logical thinking.
Regards
Daya

Dear All,

I feel that topics is getting deeper on how becoming a Planner. And I beg to disagree that labourer could hardly become a Planner and that’s really a reality.

Before I became a Planner I once work as Project Engineer for almost 9 years where I did lot of actual exposures in the site dealing all types of work discipline, starting from excavation up to the Commissioning where I have seen the start to end. While during my college days I used to study the theory of Planning - CPM method in its conventional approach. Until I have learn to use the computer particularly the Planning softwares starting from the Basic of Artemis using the prompt command until I have learn the Windows approach in most of the current planning softwares (Open Plan, Primavera, Timeline, MS Projects, Suretrak). From all these experiences I can say that independently I can able to develop the Master Overall Work Schedule in different types of Contract whether EPC, LSPB, FEED, up to the Short Form Contracts.

Do you think labourer can able to develop independently this task even we can say that he has done lot of actual exposures without knowing what Design is, Construction , Quality Control, Procurement, Technical Data, Precommissioning, Commissioning & Start up.

Come on....we need just the reality... It is true that we need some inputs from the Discipline specialist to surely organize the Plan, but the mind, ideas, brains of the construction comes from the Planner.

So do you feel still that Labourer can be a successful Planner. Big companies will surely not hire this,,,,credential wise.

Hi Clive,

I’m with Daya on this one; you’re spot on.

Chris Oggham

Se
I did not say a labourer should carry out the project plan with a year of experience.
What I said was that we should not underestimate the capability for planning of those that do the work and should talk and listen to them.
To inflate our position in an organisation because we know everything and are the "brains" is I believe an inherently suspect attitude.
I do not believe that you really feel with ten years of expereince in the field you have got a ten star rating in all the planning fields. If you do then so be it.
Notwithstanding this I still firmly believe that planning is much much much more than pulling a bar chart together on a piece of software it starts before that and is not finished until you communicate the plan listen to the feed back defend your position or except the views of others and then adjust when the site comes back with ideas on how to do it better.
RSVP
Clive

Se
"Noble role, emasculate the position"
Moi, je ne comprend pa
Je suise le coordinator extroidanaire

I am sure your comment was directed at me and stand by what I said. At the grass routes where the people who do do and have to do, their is, believe it or not planning. Yes the man that mixes concrete does plan, oh yes he does, and the ganger plans and the foreman plans and if you are so bl**dy conc**ted and self opinion**ed not to realise this you are not a planner and should become a labourer to find out.
I am a firm believer that planning should come from the bottom not be forced fed from the top. Believe it or not these hands on people know more about the job than you or I will ever know by reading books and getting degrees. We as planners are expendable but the workers will always be required and the job will get finished.
Many times I have discussed issues at the grass routes with the guy doing the job and gained a better understanding of the problem. In the long run this has lead to a resequencing of tasks and timely completions.
Se sit behind the computer dont go into the real world with your current concept or somebody may well be extremly offended, more so than I am.
Clive

Laborer as a planner? Give me a break. Are we talking about a laborer who brings cement to a bagger mixer or someone who mixes concrete? Are we talking of a real planner or just someone who inputs data?

If a laborer goes up the ladder and become let’s say as field suprintendent or construction manager, then he deserves to become a planner.

Sometimes I feel there are some people in this site instead of uplifting this noble job which is, by the way their bread and butter, they tend to emasculate their own positions.

Cheers,

Se

Dear All,

Clive is right that if labourers to be a planner has to educate the company for they will be the future losers or the company will fall and unprofitable.

The Planner is the "Brain" of the Construction and the focal point. Without any proper plan all work will have no direction. Planners must have the actual site/ office experience and secondly has the knowledge in any planning softwares (whatever) since concepts are the same. However, planning has the theory that planners must be fully adopted (ie. the Critical Path) and how it is generated (forward pass & backward pass). Planner has to learned also the process of work levelling or the proper WBS, then this has to be resource and level as well. Meanwhile, Planners must have also the capability to know the activity sequence from Conceptual, Definitive Design, Procurement , Construction , Precomm. & Commissioning. Without having all these knowledge it is impossible for labourers nor technical staff to develop the Master Work Schedule or the Baseline. Or if so, develop by in-experience Planner for certain that will have no any start nor ending.

Hope this will clarify between Planner, Labourer or just common Tecnical man.

Cheers to all competent Planners

Charlie
I can understand why some companies employ a labourer when you see some of the programmes I see from people who call themselves planners.
Yes there is a need for planners
No there is no need to understand P3 to be a planner
Planners with experience will always be sought and will always be employed
If you work for a company that thinks "real" planning can be done by a labourer its time to leave or to educate that company.
Clive

Hi men,

Dont be to proud in becomming a planner.

this is hard for me to say but this is true.

In one company I worked, the management hired a labourer to do primavera planning. This is true.

Primavera planning degenerate just like what happen in autocad drafstman. In autocad drafting, anyone can be drafstman as long as the person knows how to punch the keyboard hard to the point of destroying the keyboard.

It will only be a matter of time that Primavera planning will be done by accounting graduate, carpenters, masons, out of school youth.

BECOMMING A PLANNER, PRIMAVERA PLANNER IS ??????

A gloomy outlook.

Charlie

Hello guys....

I have work for 17 years as a pipe supervisor for Brown and Root in different types of proyects from petrochemical to offshore, perhaps I am burn out and want to to move to a field that could be new to me, as "schedule Planner"... So my question is what would be the requirements for this tipe of position right now I am attending University of Houston for a BS in Proyect management

Thanks in advance for the information....

Philip

I think you are being unreasonable

Darrell expressed a valid opinion

I agree with him

20 years experience (often the same year 20 times) 3 degrees in BS something a couple of MScs and a load of assingments makes not a planner

1 year of solid education under an experienced planner however goes a long way to achieving the goal, with or without a degree and i really dont care what Americans claim to call education when you major in needlwork and minor in structures and get a degree WOT ENGINEER ARE YOU

Look at some of the un-informed opinions that are posted (and I do not consider your opinions are uninformed) so thats why im suprised at your comments.

Think you are out of order Philip

Oscar

Philip,

Am not sure if it is me you are directing comments at.
My apologies if any offence has been caused, and that is meant sincerly.

I have arguements and opinions like all, but that is all.
Am just participating in some "healthy" discussion and debate. I hold no sway over the moderators, ask "them" directly yourself.

Also, could you quote me in anything that you may have found offensive? And let me know why? Perhaps I could re-explain my view or opinion.

Perhaps I am not as qualified as you to speak as a planner, that I will freely accept. But if you wish me to decist from participating in this forum, speak to the moderators, perhaps they will concurr.

Again, my apologies if any offence has been taken.

ps. I still believe that it shouldn’t take very long to become a planner. Whats the quote, "80% of the results, are a result of 20% of the effort"...

Best wishes,

Darrell (Not Daniel)

To expand on my last point... I’m paid no less as a Planning Analyst, than I was as a Planning Engineer... it would seem Oscar has hit the nail on the head... What people really want is the thought processes, the logical thinking, challenging of assumptions etc etc.

Go figure...

:o)

There is also a potential distinction between a Planning Engineer and a Planning Analyst.
In my previous Post on an IT contract, I was happy to call myself a Planning engineer (Having Built and rolled out systems and networks in my previous career).
However, my current contract is within the Nuclear/Powergen sector where I have little experience. Here my qualitative input in the Design Decision making process is purely based around the Practicalities and logical restrictions of whether we are sufficiently resourced, have sufficient time, or have leeway with a given contract to take one course of action over another. I’m not able to voice an opinion on whether I believe one course of action is *better* than another.
It is this qualitative aspect of the job that suffers when you work outside of your field, the rest (communication skills, planning facilitation, schedule interpretation and analysis, EV analysis and financial performance calcs and reports etc etc) should be applicable regardless of the field. These SHOULD be sufficient should you have a strong enough Project management team.
This is the role that I would term as a Planning Analyst.

Hi to all my co-PP’s,

The topic seems getting hotter and I feel that most of the real Planners are boasted by their confidence with of course years of experienced during the Construction which is right.
I used to have also that long years of experience and have learned from small, medium and large construction in all types of Construction (ie Buildings, Oil & Gas , Power Plants and even Plant trunaround work), so I can say that I am a real Planner. I can independently prepared Planning work using the Plans, Contracts, or any required provisions in all disiplines. I have learned all these things through long experience (from Conceptual to Definitive).
Years of experience, plus the patience and room for knowledge is the key factor to become a Planner.
Cheers to all and give more time to actual experience and applied those to any softwares application and the result you’ll be a Real Planner.

Charles,

You are absolutely correct in what you say.

My limited experience, limits me only to my experiences.
I only live in "my own world".

What about applying for a job as an assistant Planner, on say a couple of small house building projects. Getting & doing that job, albeit as an assistant planner and for only three months.

Then moving on to plan a little house on that project, just at the end of that three months. Is it feasable that one could do this, by just taking small steps. By the fourth or fifth month, "The Planner" if given the right assistance, might be capable of Planning a little house build of their own making??????

Isin’t building a nuclear power plant just a small step from building a house?

Come on, it cannot be that difficult???


What’s "A Real Planner"???


Respect,
Darrell

Hi,
"Anything is Possible" but its must be logic and accept by normal person. i dont deny what u said...maybe 1:100 planners.
Cheers

Hi Darrel,

Your idea of "becoming a Planner" is not possible in the petrochemical, oil and gas or construction industry. The client requires a minimum qualification for planners: generally, graduates of engineering course, with years of experience, etc.

Maybe the planner you have in mind can be accepted in small time sub-contractor doing small time job here and there, but for serious company with reputation the kind of planner you envision in this forum is not possible.

The planner may bloat the resume or cv including fraud, but eventually he will be catch up and ... bye bye/goodby after 10 days employment or earlier.

Iin other words "becoming a Planner" is a serious deceision. It is life as a Planner.

Folks,

Wow their are some petty high & low minded ideas here about Planners / Schedulers. What they are, whom they think they are, how well they are paid etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Must say thought that, I think anyone from any type of background, experience or education can become a "Planner/Scheduler". As can any Planner become anything else that they wish to become.

What is high pay? And why shouldn’t "data entry clerks" get high pay?

In my opinion we only get what we ask for, if you don’t ask you don’t get. And the various levels of pay differing professions get as pay, generally does not reflect upon economics. Salaries can be incidental.

If a "Data Entry Clerk" is making me a forture, over an average "Boss" then i would imagine that paying the former would make more business sense?????

Regards,
Darrell

Hi Guys,

I think we are getting to the point here, planners are not there to only report and schedule, the real purpose should be to drive the job, on the basis of time, and make the people aware of what the problems are in getting to target dates. The computor and various software is only tools, to assist you in finding the problem areas and then it is up to you to help resolve them. When real planning in the modern sense was started (It has always existed), in the sense of pert and then gantt, computors was hardly born in that there was none of the tools we have today. Plans (ie Schedules/barcharts) was drawn on drawing boards, and the back of cigareete packets. However the people who drew them had a notion of what they were doing, based mainly on experience.

My concern is that the proper experienced people to train the right ways is diminuishing in numbers firstly, and secondly, you get a graduate straight out of university or technikon, and you allocate him the position as planner. This raises questions. What does the youngster do? He goes out and spends his time trying to learn the software instead of planning. So you end up with so-called planners who know how to drive the software, and can run fancy reports, but do not have an idea of the nuts and bolts, that is necessary to drive the job.

Regards

Sorry, if you do not have years to learn, then suggest you try another field. it takes time to develop a good planner, thats why they are in demand.

You might want to be a surgon, but there is no short cut, work for it.

This is interesting. What we need is define the fundamentals of new generation planners. This will include the educational qualifications, the minimum software that the planner must be proficient, the planning system approach, the mathematical computations involve in the analysis of schedule and the deliverables.

Why are we doing this? I think the answer is for the survival of planners (real planners).

In project management, we did hear projects without approve schedules, schedules with doubts on how the schedules were develops. There are also cases of weak project management wherein the role of planners are subverted. There are also cases wherein the role of planners are done by site people doing excel Gantt chart without effective relationship. Remember, the world is full of project management team with beliefs that "THE ANCIENT SEVEN WONDER OF THE WORLD WERE DONE WITHOUT PRIMAVERA OR MICROSOFT PROJECT".

In other words, the role of the planners can easily be undermined. Planners need to formulate the essential of the new generation planners for planners to survive.

Hi guys,

I do not agree with ahmad statements, as a graphic designer still have to plan.

Hi all,

First of all, the issue is that can you allow a graphic designer become a construction or turnaround scheduler? I don’t think so.

Unless you are familiar with most of the business processes involved then you could add-value to your project team. What I have seen in the market, there are plenty of so-called planner/scheduler (or inspiring to be) are not from those similar verticals. It has create an environment where the so-called planner/scheduler is totally dependant on the engineers to input datas without the ability to produce 85% of the work schedule. As a boss, I don’t that will add value as he/she is merely a data entry clerk (with high pay). :)

Hi Guys,

Firstly of all Ahmad, the market is not flooded, as can be seen by the number of positions advertised. Secondly, the industry standard is P3, and as such that is what you have to know how to use it, if your employer is using it. Thirdly, your comment about P3 users is incorrect, as anygood planner should be able to learn any new or existing product in no time, as it is planning skills that is required, and not specific computor skills, the computor is just a tool, and to learn a new program is simple, dependant on your planning skills, "If I took your computor away, can you still plan????????? If you can honestly answer this question, you have a place in the planning fraternity.

Raja, I do not think I was asking questions, but if you need clarification, let me know. The point is really about how you think, there is on any job always a lot of experienced people, so that even i some parts are new to you, you can talk to these people and find out what their planning is. The planning mindset I was talking about is the ability, to produce a schedule on paper of all the thoughts, and plans various people, including yourself (dependant on your experience) and then being able to set up a system to figure out if they are doing what they said they could. The first and foremost ability you need is good communication skills, figuring out from experienced guys what they think, and transferring this onto paper and as such a schedule. Secondly, you have to have the ability, to get the right answers from them during the execution of the work, and finding out exactly where they are, and then reflect this on paper, and have the ability to sit in meetings and report it all. Hope this explains it all a bit more clearly.

Regards

Hi all,

Being a planner myself for almost 10 years now, I realised that somehow our market is flooded with those whose merely knows P3 and try to schedule mega projects. Recently, I was reviewing an EOT work program that is flawed with calendar errors, unnecessary constraints, unrealistic floats and best of all, no proper versioning to track changes. The planner doesn’t even knows how the calculation is made from the work program and apparently the planner comes from a computer science background (now doing scheduling for a railway project).

The point here, anybody could become a scheduler but unless he/she could add value to the whole process of project management, he/she will not go very far.

Hi guys,
Just want to share what Mr Pedrito say, What he told u guys is the true story but not just that its also related with safety commercial, contract and business. As a planner they have to know 5 common discipline activities also know how to come out with solution for activities that having obstruction / interfacing activities. The important key is how to dig the job method information.

I dont suggest sombody new in oil and gas to do live plant (turnaround)!!!...Start with platform fabricator planner.
cheers..

ibrar ulhaq
To be a planner, you have to know the the industry you are hoping to plan.
Initially you could begin as a scheduler and input the date that a planner or manager sets out for you and you can learn about the industry you are working and the methods, sequence of activities, resources required, how to build up and calculate durations or find out from other sources, but be aware as you need to understand the relevance of the rate with regard to your specific project.
But as others have advised it is better to enter the industry you already have some knowledge in the computer industry because you have a better idea on how it functions.
Then you will need to learn to use the planning soft chosen for the project programme management and control.
With dilighnt application it would not take long to learn the basics and then progress to the more complex applications
Best of Luck

Yeah, I must thank him for that.

Now, I am involved in new mega project i.e. highway construction. I found out that there is a special software in the market that could minimize my time to prepare a time location chart that import template from MS Project or P3. In the midst of exploring it. Cool!

Rashidi

Hi Sukumaran,

Many wanted to be a Turnaround scheduler as the pay is quite good esp here in Kerteh. But what is the entry requirements needed? How do you start? Assuming that you are from an IT background.

Best regards,
Rashidi

you should know the basic planning fundamentals and network preparation rule before starting the career in as a planner.You should know about difeerent phases of project life cycle and basic activities of that. Then you can start your career in planning of any field. Only knowing operation of P3 can’t help you to become a good planner. Remember that planner is not a computer operator only.

Try Airport Projects, there’s lots of IT companies working for the various systems of an airport.