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Becoming a Planner?

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Charleston-Joseph...
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My friends,

The idea of a Becoming a Planner in PP becomes convoluted.

I’m a graduate civil engineer and anyone below this standard and professing he as a planner is out of my class. I really vomitted when i known that the company hired labourers as Primavera Planner. The company keep it a secret but eventually I suspected something wrong and i had done what was only proper to maintain the dignity of planning engineer.

Everybody plan: labourer, masons, husbands and wives, anybody in the construction, around the world, etc. But just because somebody made a plan that someone will BECOME A PLANNER, in the real sense of what we try to propagate in PP.

Oh common guys (includng gals). Be real. Are you aware how it is to work with this kind of planner. It was hell. If you don’t know what hell is then try to experience working with a labourer as Primavera Planning Engineer in some EPC project in the Oil and Gas Industry.

Cheers and let PP know your experience.

Charlie
Daya Sugunasingha
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Dear Sigfredo

What does it matter what the labour does!

The point is the this labourer or other specialist may have a lot of useful knowledge which you have no respect for.

But to debate the point. Let us consider a labourer ganger of a team of micro-tunnellers constructing 1000m length of underground pipeline.

If you have never experienced the process of micro-tunnelling you would not know how to plan it.

But you could talk to him and glean information to put a programme.

Regards
Daya
Se de Leon
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Pedrito,

I agree with you 100%. Could you find me a job there in the Philippines? tsk tsk tsk.

Kidding aside.

Hi Daya,

Could you describe what a laborer does in your field? I’m not asking for the definition of a laborer who may be qualified as a planner. Maybe it’s better that we agree on certain definitions first. I guess you already read my definition in one of my post including a laborer who may be qualified as a planner.


Se



Daya Sugunasingha
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Dear Pedrito Salamat
Why are you so disturbed by the suggestion that a labourer can become a planner?
It depends on what you think a Planner is. Is he one that knows to use some planning software? Or is he one that understands the sequence logic and durations for the resourses he has to hand? Is he one that understand the legal implications involved in trying to get a project of the ground?
Now, you seem to have adequate experience in the petro-chemical industry and also understand the gist of various contracts, but would you be able to plan something totally unknown to you. And if not would you be less of a planner?

You could only plan, if you understand the process of this new project. You could talk to people that know the details to find out.

This person may be a labourer, who has the intermite detail about how to do it because he has hands on experience. He has planned out how best to do the job. He has worked what tools and plant he requites to do the job efficiently. He knows through the time it would take to do the job. He knows if he is able to do the job himself or if he needs more people to help him. He knows the promlems that he may encounter and how to get over it. He knows a lot more about the process then you do.

I agree that he will have to learn about how communicate his programme or plan to others and he will need to present it in a format that others have accepted as the norm.

So don’t run down the labourers of this world. It is not the job title that matters but the clear logical thinking.
Regards
Daya
Chris Oggham
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Hi Pedrito,

I understand where you are coming from and I agree with much of what you say. However, the point Clive was making is that we should not underestimate the knowledge and experience of the people who do the work, or their ability to plan their own part of it so that they can do it efficiently. If we use their knowledge and experience, we can do our job better.

When you worked as a Project Engineer, you gained a lot of information from these people, by watching and talking to them, during your involvement with the various phases of the projects you worked on. You then used this information and the knowledge you gained to help you do your job better.

I think that all Clive is really saying is that we should use all the resources available to us to do our jobs as well as we can. After all, we wouldn’t leave our computers switched off and produce all the plans and schedules by hand, would we.

Chris Oggham
Pedrito Salamat
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Dear All,

I feel that topics is getting deeper on how becoming a Planner. And I beg to disagree that labourer could hardly become a Planner and that’s really a reality.

Before I became a Planner I once work as Project Engineer for almost 9 years where I did lot of actual exposures in the site dealing all types of work discipline, starting from excavation up to the Commissioning where I have seen the start to end. While during my college days I used to study the theory of Planning - CPM method in its conventional approach. Until I have learn to use the computer particularly the Planning softwares starting from the Basic of Artemis using the prompt command until I have learn the Windows approach in most of the current planning softwares (Open Plan, Primavera, Timeline, MS Projects, Suretrak). From all these experiences I can say that independently I can able to develop the Master Overall Work Schedule in different types of Contract whether EPC, LSPB, FEED, up to the Short Form Contracts.

Do you think labourer can able to develop independently this task even we can say that he has done lot of actual exposures without knowing what Design is, Construction , Quality Control, Procurement, Technical Data, Precommissioning, Commissioning & Start up.

Come on....we need just the reality... It is true that we need some inputs from the Discipline specialist to surely organize the Plan, but the mind, ideas, brains of the construction comes from the Planner.

So do you feel still that Labourer can be a successful Planner. Big companies will surely not hire this,,,,credential wise.
Adil Gibreel
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Hi Clive

I am 100% with you. To give an example, I am a university graduate in engineering with 20 years experience in waterworks construction and 5 years in operation and maintenance in the same waterworks. I am PMP (recently) and attended training in project planning, sceduling and cost control. I believe I will make a very successful PM or a planner. But what counts at the end is the real hands on experience. We have to listen to people who really do the job. they know more than any other’

By the way I am hunting for a job as PM or a planner. any suggestions?

Regards to all
Chris Oggham
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Hi Clive,

I’m with Daya on this one; you’re spot on.

Chris Oggham
Daya Sugunasingha
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Ride On Clive
I agree with all of your comments 100%
Daya
Clive Randall
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Se
I did not say a labourer should carry out the project plan with a year of experience.
What I said was that we should not underestimate the capability for planning of those that do the work and should talk and listen to them.
To inflate our position in an organisation because we know everything and are the "brains" is I believe an inherently suspect attitude.
I do not believe that you really feel with ten years of expereince in the field you have got a ten star rating in all the planning fields. If you do then so be it.
Notwithstanding this I still firmly believe that planning is much much much more than pulling a bar chart together on a piece of software it starts before that and is not finished until you communicate the plan listen to the feed back defend your position or except the views of others and then adjust when the site comes back with ideas on how to do it better.
RSVP
Clive
Se de Leon
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Bonjour, Monsieur Clive,

So, if someone works 1 year as laborer then he can be assigned as planner on the next year hmmmm???

I understand your point that everybody plans 100% agree on that but we’re talking of the position of planner. That’s why I qualified my position that to become a planner at least a laborer should have reached a certain position in the organization such as field superintendent or construction manager.

S’il vous plait, don’t assume that I did not go through this kind of job, I had 10 years of field work before I became a Planner. I will not be qualified if I did not have that experience.

Clearly, we have a different view on what should be the qualification of a planner.

A votre sante,

Se

Clive Randall
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Se
"Noble role, emasculate the position"
Moi, je ne comprend pa
Je suise le coordinator extroidanaire

I am sure your comment was directed at me and stand by what I said. At the grass routes where the people who do do and have to do, their is, believe it or not planning. Yes the man that mixes concrete does plan, oh yes he does, and the ganger plans and the foreman plans and if you are so bl**dy conc**ted and self opinion**ed not to realise this you are not a planner and should become a labourer to find out.
I am a firm believer that planning should come from the bottom not be forced fed from the top. Believe it or not these hands on people know more about the job than you or I will ever know by reading books and getting degrees. We as planners are expendable but the workers will always be required and the job will get finished.
Many times I have discussed issues at the grass routes with the guy doing the job and gained a better understanding of the problem. In the long run this has lead to a resequencing of tasks and timely completions.
Se sit behind the computer dont go into the real world with your current concept or somebody may well be extremly offended, more so than I am.
Clive
Clive Randall
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Se
"Noble role, emasculate the position"
Moi, je ne comprend pa
Je suise le coordinator extroidanaire

I am sure your comment was directed at me and stand by what I said. At the grass routes where the people who do do and have to do, their is, believe it or not planning. Yes the man that mixes concrete does plan, oh yes he does, and the ganger plans and the foreman plans and if you are so bl**dy conc**ted and self opinion**ed not to realise this you are not a planner and should become a labourer to find out.
I am a firm believer that planning should come from the bottom not be forced fed from the top. Believe it or not these hands on people know more about the job than you or I will ever know by reading books and getting degrees. We as planners are expendable but the workers will always be required and the job will get finished.
Many times I have discussed issues at the grass routes with the guy doing the job and gained a better understanding of the problem. In the long run this has lead to a resequencing of tasks and timely completions.
Se sit behind the computer dont go into the real world with your current concept or somebody may well be extremly offended, more so than I am.
Clive
Se de Leon
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Laborer as a planner? Give me a break. Are we talking about a laborer who brings cement to a bagger mixer or someone who mixes concrete? Are we talking of a real planner or just someone who inputs data?

If a laborer goes up the ladder and become let’s say as field suprintendent or construction manager, then he deserves to become a planner.

Sometimes I feel there are some people in this site instead of uplifting this noble job which is, by the way their bread and butter, they tend to emasculate their own positions.

Cheers,

Se
Clive Randall
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I cannot agree that the planner is the brain of the project. He may facilitate, he may suggest but he must encourage free thought and input from others, if he sees himself as the pinnacle he will be isolated and vunerable to people ignoring his advice.
HE MUST LISTEN
When I first started in construction I was a labourer and the best man manager I had and in fact have ever worked with was a ganger (a senior labourer). He took care of the bonus, identified the tasks ordered the materials and set the targets. He took care of the labour and achieved the goals. He was the planner. And a jolly good one.
Clive
Pedrito Salamat
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Dear All,

Clive is right that if labourers to be a planner has to educate the company for they will be the future losers or the company will fall and unprofitable.

The Planner is the "Brain" of the Construction and the focal point. Without any proper plan all work will have no direction. Planners must have the actual site/ office experience and secondly has the knowledge in any planning softwares (whatever) since concepts are the same. However, planning has the theory that planners must be fully adopted (ie. the Critical Path) and how it is generated (forward pass & backward pass). Planner has to learned also the process of work levelling or the proper WBS, then this has to be resource and level as well. Meanwhile, Planners must have also the capability to know the activity sequence from Conceptual, Definitive Design, Procurement , Construction , Precomm. & Commissioning. Without having all these knowledge it is impossible for labourers nor technical staff to develop the Master Work Schedule or the Baseline. Or if so, develop by in-experience Planner for certain that will have no any start nor ending.

Hope this will clarify between Planner, Labourer or just common Tecnical man.

Cheers to all competent Planners
Clive Randall
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Alavaro
I wish you the very best of luck hands on experience is worth its weight in gold
Develop your ability to communicate your thoughts and you have it made.
Clive
Clive Randall
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Charlie
I can understand why some companies employ a labourer when you see some of the programmes I see from people who call themselves planners.
Yes there is a need for planners
No there is no need to understand P3 to be a planner
Planners with experience will always be sought and will always be employed
If you work for a company that thinks "real" planning can be done by a labourer its time to leave or to educate that company.
Clive
Alvaro Fernando T...
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I can sense discourage in your statement but belive me there are real companies in this planet that are looking for experience people to work. Unfortunatelly in the real world shit happens and is not just in construction also in the corporate world, and politics as a classic example look at the FEMA appointee during the crisis in New Orleans with the Catrina huracane Bush appointee could not develop a plan to help the community .

Do not be discourage by bad corporate desicions keep preparing yourself for an opportunity and be ready with all the skills that are require by the position, do not stay in one place always be on the look for better place...
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi men,

Dont be to proud in becomming a planner.

this is hard for me to say but this is true.

In one company I worked, the management hired a labourer to do primavera planning. This is true.

Primavera planning degenerate just like what happen in autocad drafstman. In autocad drafting, anyone can be drafstman as long as the person knows how to punch the keyboard hard to the point of destroying the keyboard.

It will only be a matter of time that Primavera planning will be done by accounting graduate, carpenters, masons, out of school youth.

BECOMMING A PLANNER, PRIMAVERA PLANNER IS ??????

A gloomy outlook.

Charlie
Daya Sugunasingha
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Dear Alvaro Fernando Talavera
You should have no problem, as you would have a vast experience hands on. You will know the correct sequence and durations for the resourses available at hand
You will have to learn however, how to communicate your plan to the rest of the team in the most efficient way. Bar Charts seems to be the universally accepted form. There are many Planning Software Packages. You may need to ask you company which one they use then learn how to use it properly. Get some training on it.
One thing you will have to do is limit the amount of detail you may have been used to, but encompass it within your activities you chose to present your plan of work.
Good Luck
Daya
Alvaro Fernando T...
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Hello guys....

I have work for 17 years as a pipe supervisor for Brown and Root in different types of proyects from petrochemical to offshore, perhaps I am burn out and want to to move to a field that could be new to me, as "schedule Planner"... So my question is what would be the requirements for this tipe of position right now I am attending University of Houston for a BS in Proyect management

Thanks in advance for the information....
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys, The point is I would employ Darrell ODea, but he will spend a few years learning, like the rest of his working life, but he will be a happy man at the end of time, because he has done something useful
Oscar Wilde
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Philip

I think you are being unreasonable

Darrell expressed a valid opinion

I agree with him

20 years experience (often the same year 20 times) 3 degrees in BS something a couple of MScs and a load of assingments makes not a planner

1 year of solid education under an experienced planner however goes a long way to achieving the goal, with or without a degree and i really dont care what Americans claim to call education when you major in needlwork and minor in structures and get a degree WOT ENGINEER ARE YOU

Look at some of the un-informed opinions that are posted (and I do not consider your opinions are uninformed) so thats why im suprised at your comments.

Think you are out of order Philip

Oscar
Raja Izat Raja Ib...
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Hi,
it is intresting subject, From the post keep on reply, its very difficult to make somebody to understand and Its show how diffcult to be a planner and how many want to be planner.
Darrell ODea
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Philip,

Am not sure if it is me you are directing comments at.
My apologies if any offence has been caused, and that is meant sincerly.

I have arguements and opinions like all, but that is all.
Am just participating in some "healthy" discussion and debate. I hold no sway over the moderators, ask "them" directly yourself.

Also, could you quote me in anything that you may have found offensive? And let me know why? Perhaps I could re-explain my view or opinion.

Perhaps I am not as qualified as you to speak as a planner, that I will freely accept. But if you wish me to decist from participating in this forum, speak to the moderators, perhaps they will concurr.

Again, my apologies if any offence has been taken.

ps. I still believe that it shouldn’t take very long to become a planner. Whats the quote, "80% of the results, are a result of 20% of the effort"...

Best wishes,

Darrell (Not Daniel)

Philip Jonker
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Hi,

This message is specifically directed at Daniel ODea.

I don’t know you, you are within the cintext of the greeting, and you have a serious lack of understanding the subject of planning. I have intervened on behalf of the planners on this site, as I have read your derogatory messages and you seen to have the moderators in your pocket. What I am saying is that you could not plan an ice-making machine in the Antartica. You have an attitude that is a ticket to dislike, and reflects all the negative views of humanity, never mind planners

Good luck in all your mis-adventures

Philip
Gordon Blair
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To expand on my last point... I’m paid no less as a Planning Analyst, than I was as a Planning Engineer... it would seem Oscar has hit the nail on the head... What people really want is the thought processes, the logical thinking, challenging of assumptions etc etc.

Go figure...

:o)
Oscar Wilde
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Well i agree with Darell

Go for it mate if you want to be a planner be a planner

Brunnel had never built a tunnel but he did it, a couple of other things he did with no experience also, as nobody had experience of what he was doing. Advancements come with failure.

Was Wren an Architect Engineer or Carpenter nobody would remove the props fromn the dome so he did it himself

What about Paxton heard him described as an architect but actually I think he was a smart gardener but he pushed the envelope with his crystal palace

If you have obtained a higher qualification you can think or at least remember and spew out what you have remembered.

Planners must be able to think logically above all else. They must be able to communicate what their thoughts are, they must be able to listen.

Those of us who believe to do this or that requires formal qualifications or experience are deceiving themselves. Yes its usefull but not essential whats essential is to ask why and seek that answer. I agree with Darell 3 months and you can plan.

Go for it, link up with a good teacher serve your time and start planning, understand the process, think listen and learn.
Gordon Blair
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There is also a potential distinction between a Planning Engineer and a Planning Analyst.
In my previous Post on an IT contract, I was happy to call myself a Planning engineer (Having Built and rolled out systems and networks in my previous career).
However, my current contract is within the Nuclear/Powergen sector where I have little experience. Here my qualitative input in the Design Decision making process is purely based around the Practicalities and logical restrictions of whether we are sufficiently resourced, have sufficient time, or have leeway with a given contract to take one course of action over another. I’m not able to voice an opinion on whether I believe one course of action is *better* than another.
It is this qualitative aspect of the job that suffers when you work outside of your field, the rest (communication skills, planning facilitation, schedule interpretation and analysis, EV analysis and financial performance calcs and reports etc etc) should be applicable regardless of the field. These SHOULD be sufficient should you have a strong enough Project management team.
This is the role that I would term as a Planning Analyst.
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi to all,

This thread makes me aware that there are a lot of different types of planners. While most of us got experience in construction, it is high time for us to be considerate with planners from other fields.

Only an idea.

Cheers
Pedrito Salamat
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Hi to all my co-PP’s,

The topic seems getting hotter and I feel that most of the real Planners are boasted by their confidence with of course years of experienced during the Construction which is right.
I used to have also that long years of experience and have learned from small, medium and large construction in all types of Construction (ie Buildings, Oil & Gas , Power Plants and even Plant trunaround work), so I can say that I am a real Planner. I can independently prepared Planning work using the Plans, Contracts, or any required provisions in all disiplines. I have learned all these things through long experience (from Conceptual to Definitive).
Years of experience, plus the patience and room for knowledge is the key factor to become a Planner.
Cheers to all and give more time to actual experience and applied those to any softwares application and the result you’ll be a Real Planner.

Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi Darrel,

Whoa, there seems to be a lot of question than answer.

With regards to small time sub-contractor, generally the construction industry categories ranking of companies working in the construction industry. Please refer to your construction industry directory. Serious contractor is a matter of opinion. Generally these are contractors that made effort to attain standards of excellence.

I would prefer to define real planners as anybody log in planning planet since by nature I restrain myself in being prejudice or bias. This is only my opinion. Of course, there are a lot of real planners outside PP. As we progress in PP forum, it is very easy to detect the real planners or otherwise.

With regards to your hypothetical case, it is not that easy in the real world of construction. I’ve been in construction for more than 20 years, and I know it is not that easy as you have written.

Maybe in other area let say, financial planner but then the person must have accounting background or .... perhaps how about ????

A Wedding Planner (like JLO in the movie).

Cheers to all PP.
Darrell ODea
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Charles,

You are absolutely correct in what you say.

My limited experience, limits me only to my experiences.
I only live in "my own world".

What about applying for a job as an assistant Planner, on say a couple of small house building projects. Getting & doing that job, albeit as an assistant planner and for only three months.

Then moving on to plan a little house on that project, just at the end of that three months. Is it feasable that one could do this, by just taking small steps. By the fourth or fifth month, "The Planner" if given the right assistance, might be capable of Planning a little house build of their own making??????

Isin’t building a nuclear power plant just a small step from building a house?

Come on, it cannot be that difficult???


What’s "A Real Planner"???


Respect,
Darrell
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello again,

You see in your own world you can think of "becoming a planner" without engineering background or with 3 months experience as a possibility. This is fantastic.

Try to imagine a person without engineering background and 3 months experience applying for for a job as planners in EPC contracts for nuclear plant, offshore projects, bridge construction, high rise tower building construction, etc.

What do you think will happen to his job application?

We dont have to tell you, real planners know.
Raja Izat Raja Ib...
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Hi,
"Anything is Possible" but its must be logic and accept by normal person. i dont deny what u said...maybe 1:100 planners.
Cheers
Darrell ODea
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Charles,

Thanks for that.
My view perhaps is - You are what you think & do.
If you think it will take you many years or decades to become a "Planner", then that is right, and right for "you" alone. And thus it probably will take a long time, for "you".

Because "You", may be resigned to this belief, does not necesarilly follow that another, may not set out to become the best Planner on the Planet within say 3 months, and achieve that.

Planning has though me personally, at least this one thing.
"Anything is Possible".

Also, could you possibly define the following:-
"Small time", "small time job", & "serious company" within this context. I am confused.

And I would never suggest trying to decieve someone in order to get a job or a role. Personally, if I have not covered or done something before, I would clearly state to the parties where I stand. But am always more than willing to search & study & learn from others etc.

Respect,
Darrell
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi Darrel,

Your idea of "becoming a Planner" is not possible in the petrochemical, oil and gas or construction industry. The client requires a minimum qualification for planners: generally, graduates of engineering course, with years of experience, etc.

Maybe the planner you have in mind can be accepted in small time sub-contractor doing small time job here and there, but for serious company with reputation the kind of planner you envision in this forum is not possible.

The planner may bloat the resume or cv including fraud, but eventually he will be catch up and ... bye bye/goodby after 10 days employment or earlier.

Iin other words "becoming a Planner" is a serious deceision. It is life as a Planner.
Darrell ODea
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Oh yes, and again, given the right teacher & the right teached, one can become a highly experienced planner within about 3 months. Most of what we lean in a life time can be condensed into very short a very short period.

The rest is confidence.

Regards,
Darrell

Planner for a week.
Darrell ODea
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Folks,

Wow their are some petty high & low minded ideas here about Planners / Schedulers. What they are, whom they think they are, how well they are paid etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Must say thought that, I think anyone from any type of background, experience or education can become a "Planner/Scheduler". As can any Planner become anything else that they wish to become.

What is high pay? And why shouldn’t "data entry clerks" get high pay?

In my opinion we only get what we ask for, if you don’t ask you don’t get. And the various levels of pay differing professions get as pay, generally does not reflect upon economics. Salaries can be incidental.

If a "Data Entry Clerk" is making me a forture, over an average "Boss" then i would imagine that paying the former would make more business sense?????

Regards,
Darrell
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hello Philip,

I agree with you in principle. This should be the life of the planners in construction environment, EPC projects, etc.

How about the life of planners in IT environment? Can we say it will be the same?

How about the life of planners in the forensic analyst and claim specialist? I dont think so because the environment there is more on impacted schedule, reveiw of baseline schedule and incorporate events that impact on the baseline schedule for claim purposes (generally, extension of time).

Above is only my observation. I maybe correct or the other way.

I hope we will here from them.

Cheers
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

I think we are getting to the point here, planners are not there to only report and schedule, the real purpose should be to drive the job, on the basis of time, and make the people aware of what the problems are in getting to target dates. The computor and various software is only tools, to assist you in finding the problem areas and then it is up to you to help resolve them. When real planning in the modern sense was started (It has always existed), in the sense of pert and then gantt, computors was hardly born in that there was none of the tools we have today. Plans (ie Schedules/barcharts) was drawn on drawing boards, and the back of cigareete packets. However the people who drew them had a notion of what they were doing, based mainly on experience.

My concern is that the proper experienced people to train the right ways is diminuishing in numbers firstly, and secondly, you get a graduate straight out of university or technikon, and you allocate him the position as planner. This raises questions. What does the youngster do? He goes out and spends his time trying to learn the software instead of planning. So you end up with so-called planners who know how to drive the software, and can run fancy reports, but do not have an idea of the nuts and bolts, that is necessary to drive the job.

Regards
Shahzad Munawar
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Shortcut in any field is not a key of success.

Work Hard in your field and get benefits of it. That is real success.
Bill Guthrie
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Sorry, if you do not have years to learn, then suggest you try another field. it takes time to develop a good planner, thats why they are in demand.

You might want to be a surgon, but there is no short cut, work for it.

Bill Guthrie
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our pal Jagadish is correct,

first good idea to become a engineer, then

get a job in construction, if rails intrest you, then in rails, as a helper in the field, crafts or trades like welder, carpenter, etc or if you have your degree then, perhaps as engineers asist. or in petro chem ans a jr qs.

Then after about 4 or 5 years, try to learn p3 and get into planning as a jr planner,
then after another 5 years as a jr. planner working for a planner, you are at last a qualified planner or planning engineer.

Anyone can learn to be a computer operator using a plannng program, but one must train to become a planner.There is no short cut, work for it.

cheers bill
Charleston-Joseph...
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This is interesting. What we need is define the fundamentals of new generation planners. This will include the educational qualifications, the minimum software that the planner must be proficient, the planning system approach, the mathematical computations involve in the analysis of schedule and the deliverables.

Why are we doing this? I think the answer is for the survival of planners (real planners).

In project management, we did hear projects without approve schedules, schedules with doubts on how the schedules were develops. There are also cases of weak project management wherein the role of planners are subverted. There are also cases wherein the role of planners are done by site people doing excel Gantt chart without effective relationship. Remember, the world is full of project management team with beliefs that "THE ANCIENT SEVEN WONDER OF THE WORLD WERE DONE WITHOUT PRIMAVERA OR MICROSOFT PROJECT".

In other words, the role of the planners can easily be undermined. Planners need to formulate the essential of the new generation planners for planners to survive.
Philip Jonker
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The point is everybody plans, and as such everybody is a planner.
The difference between the "planners and the rest of u
s the capability of putting plans on paper.
Philip Jonker
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Hi guys,

I do not agree with ahmad statements, as a graphic designer still have to plan.
Pedrito Salamat
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Dear All,

I have known a lot who are called planners/ scheduler , though I could say that they are merely data entry clerk only where most of the data are coming from the Project Manager or discipline Engineers just to establish te network. However , this is dangerous to the company especially in submission and approval of Baseline Schedule.

The Planner must have the skills to analyze the full view of the project, ensuring that the Critical Path is well define, resources is properly leveled , deliverables must be well planned (Engineering Procurement) and properly linked to the Construction activities. The Structure must be well organized including the coding structures with the proper heirachy or leveling.

Because Planners are the brain of the project that properly established the schedule and cost control.
ahmad rashidi
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Hi all,

First of all, the issue is that can you allow a graphic designer become a construction or turnaround scheduler? I don’t think so.

Unless you are familiar with most of the business processes involved then you could add-value to your project team. What I have seen in the market, there are plenty of so-called planner/scheduler (or inspiring to be) are not from those similar verticals. It has create an environment where the so-called planner/scheduler is totally dependant on the engineers to input datas without the ability to produce 85% of the work schedule. As a boss, I don’t that will add value as he/she is merely a data entry clerk (with high pay). :)

Daya Sugunasingha
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Guys
I agree with Philip
Planning software are tools. I choice, if you have one, is to use the correct tool for the job in hand.
Regards
Daya
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

Firstly of all Ahmad, the market is not flooded, as can be seen by the number of positions advertised. Secondly, the industry standard is P3, and as such that is what you have to know how to use it, if your employer is using it. Thirdly, your comment about P3 users is incorrect, as anygood planner should be able to learn any new or existing product in no time, as it is planning skills that is required, and not specific computor skills, the computor is just a tool, and to learn a new program is simple, dependant on your planning skills, "If I took your computor away, can you still plan????????? If you can honestly answer this question, you have a place in the planning fraternity.

Raja, I do not think I was asking questions, but if you need clarification, let me know. The point is really about how you think, there is on any job always a lot of experienced people, so that even i some parts are new to you, you can talk to these people and find out what their planning is. The planning mindset I was talking about is the ability, to produce a schedule on paper of all the thoughts, and plans various people, including yourself (dependant on your experience) and then being able to set up a system to figure out if they are doing what they said they could. The first and foremost ability you need is good communication skills, figuring out from experienced guys what they think, and transferring this onto paper and as such a schedule. Secondly, you have to have the ability, to get the right answers from them during the execution of the work, and finding out exactly where they are, and then reflect this on paper, and have the ability to sit in meetings and report it all. Hope this explains it all a bit more clearly.

Regards
Raja Izat Raja Ib...
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dear philip,
i do intrested with your question its motivated question and chalenging...to me if the case like u said, i will finish my priority system to do shutdown and material preparation , inspection, and paralell with that i will do my construction....anyhow this is just general answer..coz your question not very clear ....

how was it with my answer....

cheers ....

ahmad rashidi
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Hi all,

Being a planner myself for almost 10 years now, I realised that somehow our market is flooded with those whose merely knows P3 and try to schedule mega projects. Recently, I was reviewing an EOT work program that is flawed with calendar errors, unnecessary constraints, unrealistic floats and best of all, no proper versioning to track changes. The planner doesn’t even knows how the calculation is made from the work program and apparently the planner comes from a computer science background (now doing scheduling for a railway project).

The point here, anybody could become a scheduler but unless he/she could add value to the whole process of project management, he/she will not go very far.
Philip Jonker
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Hi guys,

Ithink you are missing the point here, ie missing the pot (piss pot). Let’s for example say you are on a semi brown and green field site in a petro-chem situation, and there is some activities you planned, and are having problems with completing due to the fact you cannot get permits, and all of a sudden the plant needs a shutdown (outage or turnaround) and now you have a gap to get these activities done, how do you plan these if you are so specialised in the scope of planning that you are either a project planner or a shutdown planners. Planners are a breed, and should not be classified into particular disciplines.
Raja Izat Raja Ib...
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Hi guys,
Just want to share what Mr Pedrito say, What he told u guys is the true story but not just that its also related with safety commercial, contract and business. As a planner they have to know 5 common discipline activities also know how to come out with solution for activities that having obstruction / interfacing activities. The important key is how to dig the job method information.

I dont suggest sombody new in oil and gas to do live plant (turnaround)!!!...Start with platform fabricator planner.
cheers..
Pedrito Salamat
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There are different types of Planning work operation and you need to know what specifically type of palnning work you have to establish.

Turn around planner has big differences in Process Plant Construction although both of them are Oil & Gas. Turn around planner deals mostly in the existing Plant maintenance and turn around work where you need to open, maintain, additional piping or instruments, cleaning, pre-commission, start-up. While, Process Plant construction start from Foundation, Equipment Erection, Piping, E & I work, Precomm. Commissioning & Plant Start up. This does not includes the Engineering, Procurement (if EPC Contract).

Therefore, any planning work has to study and develop according to the site condition, work environment, type of contracts. Well of course the planning software is the application tools where you need experience to have well organize construction logics.
Daya Sugunasingha
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ibrar ulhaq
To be a planner, you have to know the the industry you are hoping to plan.
Initially you could begin as a scheduler and input the date that a planner or manager sets out for you and you can learn about the industry you are working and the methods, sequence of activities, resources required, how to build up and calculate durations or find out from other sources, but be aware as you need to understand the relevance of the rate with regard to your specific project.
But as others have advised it is better to enter the industry you already have some knowledge in the computer industry because you have a better idea on how it functions.
Then you will need to learn to use the planning soft chosen for the project programme management and control.
With dilighnt application it would not take long to learn the basics and then progress to the more complex applications
Best of Luck
Sukumaran Subaram...
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Hi Rashidi,

What is the software’s name and where can I get it? Any info please forward to my e-mail address sukumaransubaramaniyan@yahoo.co.uk

TQ.

Anyway, you haven’t read the private message I forward to you on 27/04/05.

Regards.
ahmad rashidi
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Yeah, I must thank him for that.

Now, I am involved in new mega project i.e. highway construction. I found out that there is a special software in the market that could minimize my time to prepare a time location chart that import template from MS Project or P3. In the midst of exploring it. Cool!

Rashidi
Shahzad Munawar
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hi Ahmad

Sukumaran already well explained and in detai lthe requirement and pocedure of trunaround scheduling.

So you need to be moved accordingly
ahmad rashidi
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Hi Sukumaran,

Many wanted to be a Turnaround scheduler as the pay is quite good esp here in Kerteh. But what is the entry requirements needed? How do you start? Assuming that you are from an IT background.

Best regards,
Rashidi
Sukumaran Subaram...
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If you want to involve in Oil & Gas field, first you shall try to become a Turnaround Scheduler. In plant trunaround you can meet Mechanical, Electrical, Machinery and Instrument Planners.

During the preparation stage the planners will prepare the job method sheet (JMS). The JMS contain all the detail information such as activity description, manpower, equipment and total hours required to complete the job.

As a Turnaround Scheduler, you will use the approved JMS to develop the summary and detail schedule which is resource loaded. Upon completion, you can discussed with the plant engineers as well as with your planners to fine tune the schedule.

Once approved by client, you can distribute the schedule to the contractor for them to follow during the execution period.
ibrar ulhaq
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i totally understand where your coming from, but the problem for me is 1. I dont have Years to learn! and also I am unsure of which part of Planing will be best, it seems that either rails or Airport IT will be best.. but the other option is any Planning jobs in Oil/petrol as I am looking to move to UAE.
I will be doing a course in P3 that will teach more of the aspects that are suggested by the member who contrimbuted to helping me, which i really appriciate.
Jagadish E M
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Hi Buddy,

Planning and scheduling looks very simple.By mere knowing P3 if anyone could become a planner then the industry would be flooded with planners alone. Well if you really want to be planner the you got to spend some time in site activities , say couple of years and then think of getting in to planning department in which ever field of planning you choose.

well I think you shud learn basics of planning like methodology of activity, sequencing activities, productivity of labour, awareness on right kind and latest equipments for activities, network diagram etc and then get some experience in site to add some confidence behind you and then start planning for a project.

Hope this helps

cheers
Raj Maurya
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you should know the basic planning fundamentals and network preparation rule before starting the career in as a planner.You should know about difeerent phases of project life cycle and basic activities of that. Then you can start your career in planning of any field. Only knowing operation of P3 can’t help you to become a good planner. Remember that planner is not a computer operator only.
ibrar ulhaq
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hi Airport would be really good for me as I live next to gatwick Airport UK. but what will the job involve?
as mentioned IT planning? can someone explain.. what i need to do to get in to this?
regards
Se de Leon
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Try Airport Projects, there’s lots of IT companies working for the various systems of an airport.
Philip Jonker
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I think try starting with planning in IT projects, I hear there is some scope there.
ibrar ulhaq
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lol yea your right, I am really unsure to what I should look into still! as the only suggestion I was told was to go in to Trains and work your way from that!!!

also IT planning? whats that ?
reagards
David Watters
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Mmm lets see - Computer programmer takes on multi dicipline engineering contract? Me thinks not!

Best bet is to scour this website for intermediate planning jobs and try to gain experience in civils / M&E or EPC first. Railway projects can be pretty fast "track" and they dont really want to "train" people

Also may want to consider getting an engineering qualification of some description - or target IT planning to get the feel of the work. You wouldn’t want to "derail" your self on the first job now ?

Arf Arf !!