Oh but they were! The point I was trying to make is that it's a great piece of software but no-one can afford to use it... even Buro Four! I agree with everything you say.
Bear in mind also that the prices have about haved since the launch (I guess because of lack of take-up). On the original costs I guestimated £43000 for a £10 million construction project. That absolutely busts any fee that we would consider for our services.
I don't know if anyone is using Planweaver (except for those in the original research consortium who I guess get it 'free') but it would be interesting to find out how they justify the cost.
Do you think there should be a Design Planning and Management forum on here? Last message I sent to the webmaster I got an autonmated response (I think) and I notice we are still in the claims area.
Wow ! For that sort of cash per month I can get an assistant PM, not just a piece of software. Taking an average project it's 3 grand sterling plus 1500 per month therefater. On a one-year design period thats 21 grand sterling.
(Are Buro's coffers THAT deep ?)
Member for
23 years 6 months
Member for23 years6 months
Submitted by David Bordoli on Fri, 2002-05-24 03:33
I have been following the development of the ADePT methodology for ages, Dr Andrew Baldwin was my supervisor when I was a post-grad at Loughborough.
Since then I have attended as many of the ADePT, and subsequently BIW, presentations on the subject. From the presentations it is obviously a very impressive tool for doing what it is designed to do... more of that later.
Earlier this year I went back to Loughborough to 'sit' the Design Management module of the MSc Project Management program (it wasn't available when I was a student!). Simon Austin was one of the principal tutors and a significant part of the module was spent using ADePT; the raw software before it has the user interface supplied by BIW.
I found it very easy to use and most impressive. BUT, it only helps sort out the ORDER of tasks to MINIMISE iteration. That way it can be used as a management tool to help decide a strategy for the design process. A 'traditional' project management/planning tool is still needed to model the output (I dumped the information into Powerproject/Teamplan without any problems).
As I indicated previously, to me, it seems a very expensive piece of software. I have spokeb to BIW a number of times about this and they have modified their pricing structure (I am not sure if this, or any pricing, is advertised on their website. As I recall my last conversation with BIW the prices were on a project by project basis with an initial fee of £500 to £7000 per month dependent on the project size then 50% of the first fee per month for the remainder of the design period and 25% for the construction period (prices in GB pounds - just in case the symbols didn't come across). Otherwise a site-wide licence can be purchased for £2000 per month. All those prices need confirmation and are subject to my scrawled notes.
As I said it is a very impressive programme but in my opinion it is a 'one-trick-pony', albeit a very impressive trick. That, when considering it needs a PM package to analyse the data, which will cost a fraction of the price and will be all singing all dancing.
I have tried to analyse it but I can't make the sums add up. For me it would just blow the design planning and management fee structure we currently use and I can't justify it at the moment.
Speaking to Simon Austin about this he tells me to remember that not only are you buying the software but also the expertise that went into producing the process maps... yes, but that's another story!
What I am afraid of, because I think the guys that developed this are fantastic people (some of the most stimulating lectures I have ever had were delivered by Simon Austin), that someone else will now use their research and push out a similar piece of software at a fraction of the price.
Planweaver, I think, is the icing on the cake for design planning and management. Whereas I think most design practices and programs could benefit initially from some more rudimental application of basic planning and resource management techniques.
Now for the advertisement! Buro Four Project Services are an independent consultancy offering, predominantly in the UK, Design Planning and Management as one of our core services (see www.burofour.co.uk for further details or contact me!)
David, thanks for picking up the thread. As you can tell I don't get here every day. Have you used the Planweaver ? I would be interested in some opinion if you have.
Ernesto, on a VERY basic level there are a few sequences:
Concept, Scheme, Detail, Tender, Working, Asbuilt
... and though all of those stages:
Architect, Structure, E&M, QS
... but there are more questions than answers. This is our job:
Plan, organise, execute & control
... how much info are you after ?
Member for
23 years 6 months
Member for23 years6 months
Submitted by David Bordoli on Tue, 2002-05-07 13:13
Apologies for being the one who always bashes on about academic stuff but this is an excellent reference book 'Building Design Management'
by Colin Gray, Will Hughes. There seems to be very little written on the subject and this (at least in the UK) is as close as you will get to an authorative text:
Also, do you know about the stuff being written at Loughborough University and the ADePT team. Real cutting edge stuff, this is their site with lots of info & papers: http://www.adeptmanagement.com/
I'm seeking general info. I just want to compare the way I see the design process with the way things are usually done worldwide.
Specifically, what is the usual process or cycle each part of a design (arq.,structure, electrical,etc.) follows?
How is approval usually dealt with in the planning sequence for each of these parts?
Member for
24 years 9 months
Member for24 years9 months
Submitted by Ernesto Puyana on Fri, 2002-04-26 09:43
That's a great offer. I've dealt mostly with the contruction phase of projects, since I work with contractors.
I would really appreciate some hints on the basic steps and logic of the design phase. I mean, what is the basic routine of the design procedure one could use as a template for a schedule?
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRe: Design Management
I have moved the thread, please let me know if it needs further miodification.
Thanks
Member for
24 years 4 monthsRe: Design Management
The Planweaver guys must have a client list on their literature. Maybe we know someone in those organisations who could comment. Worth a try.
On the moving of the thread. I'm on to it.
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRe: Design Management
Mark...
Oh but they were! The point I was trying to make is that it's a great piece of software but no-one can afford to use it... even Buro Four! I agree with everything you say.
Bear in mind also that the prices have about haved since the launch (I guess because of lack of take-up). On the original costs I guestimated £43000 for a £10 million construction project. That absolutely busts any fee that we would consider for our services.
I don't know if anyone is using Planweaver (except for those in the original research consortium who I guess get it 'free') but it would be interesting to find out how they justify the cost.
Do you think there should be a Design Planning and Management forum on here? Last message I sent to the webmaster I got an autonmated response (I think) and I notice we are still in the claims area.
Regards
Member for
24 years 4 monthsRe: Design Management
Wow ! For that sort of cash per month I can get an assistant PM, not just a piece of software. Taking an average project it's 3 grand sterling plus 1500 per month therefater. On a one-year design period thats 21 grand sterling.
(Are Buro's coffers THAT deep ?)
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRe: Design Management
Hi again...
I have been following the development of the ADePT methodology for ages, Dr Andrew Baldwin was my supervisor when I was a post-grad at Loughborough.
Since then I have attended as many of the ADePT, and subsequently BIW, presentations on the subject. From the presentations it is obviously a very impressive tool for doing what it is designed to do... more of that later.
Earlier this year I went back to Loughborough to 'sit' the Design Management module of the MSc Project Management program (it wasn't available when I was a student!). Simon Austin was one of the principal tutors and a significant part of the module was spent using ADePT; the raw software before it has the user interface supplied by BIW.
I found it very easy to use and most impressive. BUT, it only helps sort out the ORDER of tasks to MINIMISE iteration. That way it can be used as a management tool to help decide a strategy for the design process. A 'traditional' project management/planning tool is still needed to model the output (I dumped the information into Powerproject/Teamplan without any problems).
As I indicated previously, to me, it seems a very expensive piece of software. I have spokeb to BIW a number of times about this and they have modified their pricing structure (I am not sure if this, or any pricing, is advertised on their website. As I recall my last conversation with BIW the prices were on a project by project basis with an initial fee of £500 to £7000 per month dependent on the project size then 50% of the first fee per month for the remainder of the design period and 25% for the construction period (prices in GB pounds - just in case the symbols didn't come across). Otherwise a site-wide licence can be purchased for £2000 per month. All those prices need confirmation and are subject to my scrawled notes.
As I said it is a very impressive programme but in my opinion it is a 'one-trick-pony', albeit a very impressive trick. That, when considering it needs a PM package to analyse the data, which will cost a fraction of the price and will be all singing all dancing.
I have tried to analyse it but I can't make the sums add up. For me it would just blow the design planning and management fee structure we currently use and I can't justify it at the moment.
Speaking to Simon Austin about this he tells me to remember that not only are you buying the software but also the expertise that went into producing the process maps... yes, but that's another story!
What I am afraid of, because I think the guys that developed this are fantastic people (some of the most stimulating lectures I have ever had were delivered by Simon Austin), that someone else will now use their research and push out a similar piece of software at a fraction of the price.
Planweaver, I think, is the icing on the cake for design planning and management. Whereas I think most design practices and programs could benefit initially from some more rudimental application of basic planning and resource management techniques.
Now for the advertisement! Buro Four Project Services are an independent consultancy offering, predominantly in the UK, Design Planning and Management as one of our core services (see www.burofour.co.uk for further details or contact me!)
Member for
24 years 4 monthsRe: Design Management
TO WEBMASTER
Can you move this thread into Project Management Discussions - it's not about claims (where Clive's offer was targetted)
Ernesto, trawl the web for sites like http://www.4pm.com/gettingstarted.htm
... they are ultimately selling training, but they may be of help.
Member for
24 years 4 monthsRe: Design Management
David, thanks for picking up the thread. As you can tell I don't get here every day. Have you used the Planweaver ? I would be interested in some opinion if you have.
Ernesto, on a VERY basic level there are a few sequences:
Concept, Scheme, Detail, Tender, Working, Asbuilt
... and though all of those stages:
Architect, Structure, E&M, QS
... but there are more questions than answers. This is our job:
Plan, organise, execute & control
... how much info are you after ?
Member for
23 years 6 monthsDesign Management
Apologies for being the one who always bashes on about academic stuff but this is an excellent reference book 'Building Design Management'
by Colin Gray, Will Hughes. There seems to be very little written on the subject and this (at least in the UK) is as close as you will get to an authorative text:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0750650702/qid%3D1020772856/ref%…
Also, do you know about the stuff being written at Loughborough University and the ADePT team. Real cutting edge stuff, this is their site with lots of info & papers:
http://www.adeptmanagement.com/
for the commercially available software (beware it is very expensive!):
www.biwtech.com/downloads/pwdatasheet.pdf
Regards
Member for
24 years 9 monthsRe: Free Help
I'm seeking general info. I just want to compare the way I see the design process with the way things are usually done worldwide.
Specifically, what is the usual process or cycle each part of a design (arq.,structure, electrical,etc.) follows?
How is approval usually dealt with in the planning sequence for each of these parts?
Member for
24 years 9 monthsRe: Free Help
That's a great offer. I've dealt mostly with the contruction phase of projects, since I work with contractors.
I would really appreciate some hints on the basic steps and logic of the design phase. I mean, what is the basic routine of the design procedure one could use as a template for a schedule?