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Programme Logic Vs Site Teams thinking

16 replies [Last post]
Shivaji Nagare
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Hi everyone?
I am working on a five star multistoried Hotel.
The completion schedule (bout 4000 acts) was developed on 1st information drgs and when nobady from construction team was available.
meanwile the schedule was approved.
Now lot of changes have been made in drgs and construction team has thair own views on sequencing of job.(Job on going)
So in this case what should be done? If the programme is changed to suit site logic will be contrctually accepted?
How many time the programme should be changed??
Any wild thoughts please...
Shiva

Replies

Clive Randall
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Hi Shahab
Im not sure that a programme should contain all of the B of Q items. I agree it should contain all of the major and minor headings but it should not be a list of work but a schedule of activities logically linked.
I believe the programme whatever the contract says should belong to the contractor and he should adjust and revise this "living document" when he requires so to do, regardless of whether the period of delay has been triggered in the contract. An example is when additional information is provided.
I have worked on contracts where the programme was required to be revised when a delay trigger was reached but the contract stated that the end date must remain the same. Effectively this means that the contractor had no entitlement to an extension which is clearly not a viable position. This is very important when for example the contractor is claiming an extension.
I would therefore suggest that whenever a programme is revised a pragmatic approach rather than a truly contractual approach is followed. As to approval see my previous comments and the case law on "who gets the last letter on file" when terms and conditions such as programmes cannot be agreed upon.
Clive
Shahab Ali
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Hi shiva Jee!

Contractual plan should not be in so much detail. Its very time taking job to revise the plan.Atleast all BOQ items should be there in plan and thats it.

Plan can be revised with both parties agreement, when targets looks unacheivalbe. I think Sir, you should avoid so much detail for contractual plan.

Regards,

Shahab
Oscar Wilde
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Ive never had a programme approved
Clive Randall
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I like this thread and I agree with what Mr Zhang said, however a few points here.

It is unlikely that the Consultant team will have approved the Programme, they may have had no comments but I doubt whether they approved it.

Generally their will be a Contract Programme allthough I have worked on loads of Projects when agreement was never reached. It does form the basis for claim substantiation.

Milestones may or may not be important. If their is no financial penalty if they are not achieved you can ignore them.

Stage or completion dates ditto these can be ignored if no penalty.

Do remember however how you are being paid is this against milestone achivement and if so is it on a percentage basis or an area basis. Or is it on an IPS or valuation.

Once you have answered these questions and assuming their is no financial penalty see what benefit changing the programme gives you.

It must not be more expensive to carry out the works in a different sequence. This is not only the works the main contractor is directly undertaking but also the work of nominated subcontractors or specialists.

If you have already established delivery sequences with them they are very likely to charge you for storage or revising their schedules worse of all they may not change which could lead you to have lifts and windows etc available for a structure which has not been built while having no materials available for one that has.

Assuming there is no affect of the re-sequence which is highly unlikely if the Project has been running for any length of time and specilist have been appointed, look at the site teams approach. Remember they will probably be looking at the Project in the very short term maybe the next three months, if they are right and their are benefits, reschedule the work.

There is nothing better for a Project than a site team who own the programme.

As for the Client tell him you have revised your short term sequence or wait until he asks for a revised programme as you have fallen behind on the original Contract programme. Be carefull on the decision made here. Most claims result from the late delivery of information from the dcesign team. Like the window and lift scenario above, if the Architect has not finished details that you need because you have revised your programme and you havent told him then your claim may well dissapear.

Finally once again we have an example of a programme that is too big to really work. If your Contract Programme had been 500 activities say, you would have had enough flexibility built in to change the sequences. You could have developed the level 2 to a level 4 as the details became available.

Kind regards
Clive Randall
Sriram Iyer
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Hello,
Generally with client you will be bound by Lev-2 dates and further adjustment in Lev-3/4 Sch, client should not have objections.

The schedule should be dynamic & reflect the current status of project. All the necessary revisions in drawings should be reflected.

Ofcourse, we should monitor at each stage, the revisions impact in cost.

Rolyn Jalea
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hi,

We have encountered the same problem mainly in our finishes activities, what we did is we created an internal programme and set a meeting with our construction team & all the sub-contractors concerned. After some brainstorming, we finalized that programme which suits to all of us.Its just a simple excel sheet with just start and finish date for every activity (level-wise). Just make sure that you will still achieve your milestone dates in your original programme. Right now we are following that internal programme. I think unless the original submitted baseline programme has a totally diffent logic than what is happening at site, it should not be revised.
Katalin Hovanyi
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Haliho,
According to my experience the requirement for "big" scope, schedule, target change is always there. Most project get minimum 2 "new" target after the contract schedule. My professional record was 9 serious overhouls during a 2 year project. Use your common sense and cover your behind (the original saying mentiones other part of your body) with papers from everybody.
Good Luck
Katalin
Daya Sugunasingha
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Hi
I do not think that Programme Logic is fixed from beginning to end, neither is duration of activities. This is because there are design changes forced on the the project by the client or any onre of many such as recourses, finiance, budget, political, new machinery and methods.
You must however always come to a consensus with the Site Team because you are asking them to make it happen on site. I always try to get them to buy into the logic and plan that I have mapped out as I know that I have made consideration for the overall programme requirements and that the project milestones have been met. The danger with some site thinking is that they always want to do it in the way they have always done it before without opening their minds to anything innovative. Another danger is that they may only look at those aspects that they are specialist in and if because of they dominance in the team may make the other aspects of the project more at risk of not achieving their milestones. Best to plan and agree for the project as a whole, but I agree it is not very easy.
Regards
Daya
Fazeel Kamaran
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Firstly I think it is a Planners job to know how to plan / sequence the job. Major differences of opinion occur between the Planner & the Execution team if the Planner / the Execution team have not worked previously on similar type of projects.

For example if either of them has previously worked on a lateral expanding project (say a ground floor + 2 floors spread over a vast area) & are now put to work on a vertical expanding project (like a tower of 15+ floors) then the view points differ. Though the sequence of work (apart from contractual matters) is the same viz. site clearance - set out - excavation - foundations - columns - beams / slabs - brickwork - plumbing - plastering - wood work - painting - finishing - completion. In a lateral expanding project where access to work areas is far easy, there is little scope for dispute. But in a vertical project where access is constrained, then if the planner decides to build the structure from one side & finish (structurally) the level & then progressively move upwards instead of first building up the core of the structure & progressively bringing up the external reaches of the structure then this definitely is a cause for dispute.

This appears to be so in your case. With the initial contract / tender drawings you should have been able to schedule the work activities (studying the sections / elevations) to develop the flow of the work. These drawings give a complete picture of the structure to be constructed & the various types of utilities to be provided. They sometimes do not give in detail the types of finishes in detail but the BOQ does provide details of finishes or maybe general description of them. So apart from the drawings it is a must for the Planning Engineer to study the Contract Documents (general guidelines, contractual dates, BOQ, specifications, amendments, attend pre-bid meetings) apart from the drawings. Talk to suppliers, equipment handlers / providers, installation & fit-out contractors to know what they think & would plan if the (their) scope of works (with its contractual limits) was given to them. If you are a Civil Engineer do not just study the Structural drawings, but also try to look at the drawings for the utility services.

As a planner also try to study plant / machinery / equipment catalogues & build up a personal document containing various productivity rates - manpower outputs, machinery outputs, material usage & application.

In the first case you should detail your schedule as finely as is possible. If you do not have the assistance of the execution team then you should divide the project into as may zones / areas / levels (structurally) as is possible & put the internal works & finishes into a start – to – start grouping with the structure. This division will help you to later modify / revise the programme without affecting the contractual dates. This will also allow you to claim variations.

Remember a Consultant / Client will only look to see if your schedule has met the contractual milestones. He will try to get you to modify your programme to a level where you will not be able to claim variations. Remember to put in as many access dates / time constrained activities linked to the Client providing access / issue of free use materials / approvals of materials & drawings. Changes in drawings should be recorded by your Quantity Surveyors & at each update you should put in a revised programme to suit the present status of revisions to the work required to be done & you are entitled to revise the sequence of work to suit the presently available drawings. If the contractual dates are being shifted due to these changes then do not hesitate to project them as they now stand.

Remember to include in your progress reports updates of the agreed programme, revised programme (as per current status of requirements of Client), copies of Contractual correspondence prior to & after these changes have been asked by the Client. Then at each subsequent progress report, update the revised programme (along with the agreed one). Keep putting in, every fortnight or as per your contract stipulations, a Delay Event programme to show the delays due to the revisions as against the agreed schedule. Keep the pressure on the consultant / client and donot give in unless a compromise is reached.

I think now you should take into consideration what the execution team thinks is the required sequence in which they can work, keep the contractual milestones & submit a revised programme to the client highlighting / explaining why it is now necessary to revise the approved programme.

You request for revision can be approved by the client if you can precisely point out the revisions received from him for the works required to do which are different from what they were at the tender schedule.

I am sorry friend for this loooooooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggggg narrative.
Andrew Flowerdew
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Shivaji,

Has anyone costed the teams new ideas? Bottom line is money - your tender was based on the original schedule. The team will often choose the easiest and not always the most cost efficient way of building the job.

Change and resubmit the programme, but if they are your own teams ideas, cost the changes first and then decide.
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi,

You need to review the contractual aspect in managing changes in approve contractual schedule. You also need to feel the norms of the project team regarding updating of approved construction schedule.

As a general rule, the updated (current) approved contractual schedule shall reflect the current work that the project team envisioned to do and will do after due consideration of all information prior to data date.

In the event of changes to original scope of works whose impact cannot be reasonably assessed or series of information including instructions that continually inhibit the start of activities as originally planed, the original logic (not site logic) shall prevail.
Sunil Kumar
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Shivaji,

I suggest you keep the End mile stones as it is. Reschedule the activities in agreement with your site team. Agree with your client / consultant Engineer and make a resubmission.

P.S. More detailed your programme better for tracking and highlighting areas of slippages...


Cheers
Sunil
Shivaji Nagare
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Hi Kumar,
Thanks for ur reply
Yes My schedule is Zonwise/floorwise/areawise, like Public Area, Rooms etc. It also seperates RCC , envelope, MEP and Interior. It is very detail schedule with 4500 Acts. Also the trades are liked floor to floor for crew movement.

It is very difficult to update it and I am realy confused wheather the Contractual Schedule should be in such detai. As Ziyang said, I think the contractual schedule should be limited to Level-3, thats only Zone and floor wise.
What u Say??

Shiva
Zhang Haixiang
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Hi,

It’s better to change your schedule after discussion with constrution team. if they do their work based on their own schedule, it will be difficult for you to update/status your schedule,and your work will be useless.

You can discuss the new schedule with client, let them re-approve it.

It’s better to have a high level schedule (not too much details) as contractual schedule
Kumar I
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Hi Shiva,
Since u r doing hotel planning,I just want to know to what level u did the schedule

Did u plan the activities like M & E Sevices etc Floor wise ,Zone wise or u did room wise

Did u keep same trade activities independently in each floor or did u link them up for crew movement
Raja Izat Raja Ib...
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dear shiva,

base on my experience and my opinion :
1. the schedule itsself to be build to meet the target in certain time frame.
2. to meet the cost and budget being budgeted for the project.
3. to meet client requirement and contractors requirement
base on the contract

so we try to minimize mistake in our schedule from re doing the works so many times, but to meet success for the company, for future project....what i can say we have to do it, to meet the three no. i have stated.
no company...no project...no jobs...cheer up