My fingers are positivly itching to respond to Darell and Charlie and Bill sorry for the dealy and a great deal of what you say I agree with. HOWEVER

The Majority of Planners dont think!!!!!

Thats my experience.

They take off their anorak turn on their software replicate a load of crap send it to the site team and go back to spotting planning software.

Critical thought c**p C**p C**p give me any thought.

The idea that planning is all done on software remote from reality with output rates production rates and the like defies belief.

Planning requires a sleevs roled up approach.

I defie anybody to say they are a planner if they can only drive a piece of sofware. You are not a planner, you are a bulshit propagator.

To be a planner you must plan, you must logically consider the method of construction, the resources required the limits to those resources the external factors, the specification requirements and the goal, which if you dont know is to make money.

Having rattled those into your brain you must sleep on them and spit out an attempt a filling a blank sheet of paper. Then you must see if it works.

I firmly believe that only a small number of people I have met could seriously be considered planners.

If you are not one, dont worry about the software you are using or whether you are a CRITICAl W**ker put your anorak back on and go, so that the rest of us can do our job.

Lets see what heckles are raised to this

Kind regards

Clive Randall

Drrell is correct P3 is for Planners who want to manage a project.

MSP (mighty sorry program ) is for building dog houses or a level 1 engineering chart with a few activities.

Try managing a 15k activity schedule properly with msp

it will not fly pal

cheers bill guthrie

Still think P3 rules (presently), no contest.

D.

David,

That is a bit strong, in my view.

Perhaps this could be thought in another way.
Maybe what you might define as "Shoddy Thinking" (Whateverdatis), is another persons (political correctness), Critical Thinking.

It twould b grate 4 all f we were all the same & tought da same way, woodint it??

Respect,
Darrell

ps. I am none to impressed with PP/TP developments, and I have used it since 1988 (When it was good, in my opinion).

pps. liked ure tinker response, well tought out.

ppps. I 4 one, would not dare to advise anyone, am not qualified to give advise.

Hi Darell,

Crystal

Clear as a crystal ball.

MSP, P3, Powerproject develop critical thinking.

The only difference is the degree of development...

and P3 leads to advance stage in the development of critical thinking.

MSP very minimal approaching to zero, powerproject - maybe a little bit higher than MSP but not in the class of P3.

Cheers

Charlie

Charlie
What is critical thinking?
Thinking that must be done to survive?
Or perhaps the thought process is logical and structured?

Hi Clive,

You stated the situation rather eloquently. But twenty years is not that long ago. Open plan version 4 did the job, but Bill Gates developed windows for brain dead people, and we all had to follow suit. I doubt if ten percent of the members of pp can use dos or dbase. The point is that before computors existed, planning was part of project management, and people still know how to draw plans (barcharts) on the back of cigarette boxes. The program does not matter, can it do the job??????????????????????

David and Bernard

Enjoyed reading your discourse, good read and interesting. BOTH have positive points on relationships.

Thanks, Bill guthrie

Ken,

Thankyou - I have actually used all 3 at one time or another. I have not used the lastest P3e/c however.

Hi Guys
The best software for you is the software that you are most familiar with. This is because you know how it works, its strengths and weaknesses and you work around it to output the required result.
The best software for the project is the software that does the job best for that project but producing all that is required of it. This is because some software packages are better at doing some things better then others are. Tools are not universally applicable to all tasks, i.e. use a hammer to drive a nail and a screwdriver to screw in a screw, even though you could use the hammer.
Regards
Daya

Hi Ken,

Have no problem with power project, however, what is it? If it is anything like MSP, let it ride. The point is that in the accounting discipline or data management, programs talk to each other. Why do we have this major problem in planning, where it becomes a crusade to switch from one software to another, surely if you buy a pint of milk, from different dairies it is milk, despite the fact they treat their milk in different ways.

Whether you have excel, lotus or any of the spreadsheets, you can view files written in whatever, however, in planning the software companies rule. The question is are they not capable of competing on the same platform, in other words, are we to be bound to some particular software, despite our own prefences.

Regards

Hi guys,

My evening at home. I agree this is a good discussion, and maybe should be changed to what does the industry require, and not bull versus the real thing. The challenge is there, and I have been laying the gauntlet down for a while, challenge P3 and they have to respond, it is like lotus, you can still find lotus help when you work with excel.

Inappropiate text deleted by moderator.

and I was not trying to be offensive david

tring to point out the facts that no matter what program we desire, time and time again its stated within the construction tender documents what software will be used for planning by the majors, and again for documentaton its there. Primavera.

So really would feel that 95%of the majors use primavera, not 70. This speaks for itself is the moot point.
Cheers Bill

David

Now must reply to your statements.

Although a yank, have spent 30 years working all over the world, asia, europe,mid-east,in addition to the states, same as Philip and others.

Infact spent more time working abroad then in the states. so nothing relative to location about p3.

For DOCUMENTATION OR BACK UP, LOOK AT 90 PERCENT OF PETROCHEM CONTRACTS ISSUED BETWEEN 1990 AND 2002 AND YOU FIND THAT:
’the tenders will prepare there schedules using Primavera Project Planner’
Mobil Oil
Shell Oil
Exxon
Texaco
Philips.
And from 2002 onwords, some of them will ask for p3e.

and as far trying to push my personal pref. for a program, no, was taught to be open minded and never allow your personal favours to cloud a contractural issue. keep openminded.

Relative to Primavera people getting involved, they do not need to work now at selling a product like you do, they have a successiful product that sells itself, and will continue to do so,whereas your firm is trying to sell a wannabe scheduling program.

Having said the mouthfull above, AGREE WITH PHILIP, let someone develop a bug free program that runs like p3 and that gives the credibility that p3 gives and we will consider it, meanwile, will stick with p3 3.1
Have a great day.
bill

Dear All

My suggestion is if the PP admin can have result analysis from the voting page for best planning software in terms of their functionality. We can then see comparison between MSP P3 and Powerproject. Of course no of people fill in the survey will be different but at least we will have an indicator the comparison between these softwares.

Cheers

Alex

Alex,
you are right about the problems of participating in PP discussions for those who produce PM software. Even when they write about the approaches people may think that they are trying to promote the software. I am afraid that this problem is a communication barrier that restricts both parties.
Regards,
Vladimir

Thanks Daya for empathising the point

Hi

Primavera is a main partner in this discussion, but they seem to deny that the pp site exists and do not give a hoot about their users

David
Appreciate your input however, it is what you are wanting in scheudules not the software.

Time and Time again since 1986, P3 has proved to be the best support tool for Construciton Planning, and offers almost anything you need to manage a project in construction, so one wonders why you would go to your program or revert to msp, (mighty sorry program). this arguement will continue forever, but this is fact. P3 is the top of the line, on a scale of 1 to 10
p3 number one
msp no 10
cheers bill

Andrew
Thank you.
I was given to understand that P3 was being phased out and to be replaced with P3e, which seems to be following the graphics lead.
Regards
Daya

Hi Daya,

It is simple, as real planners, P3 gives the right answers, and why do we have to switch to mickey mouse bullskit, even if we know the tools we are uding is correct. I do not personally have a share in P3, however it has the capability to do the job, and at the end of the day pay my salary. Further to this, I have given up on planning programs at the end of the job, and stil run them in the old style, brute force and temperament

Dear Bill/ Philip
I have not used the latest Open Plan or P3ec and can only think that they must have done their market research before abandoning the DOS versions.

To a question for help on choosing soft ware I did give Tim Readman the following personal view from my experience in the past.

I think there is no indication that they will be reverting back to it unless market trends reverse.

This is what I sad to him.

"I hope you make the correct choice for your company.
I am an advocate of Powerproject as they have consistently listened to the wishes and needs of the man on the work face "THE PLANNER" and improved and developed it accordingly. But you have to examine both or all other software available and chose the one that delivers the end produce you require.
I have been in the field of construction planning since the days before computers were in use for planning in the UK and I have, in the past, worked with Darrell O’Dea, Garry France and David Bordoli who have made comments on this topic.
I remember the very shaky start of the introduction of the first software packages.
I was an Activities Organiser for the CIOB South London Committee going back a good few years now, when I organised a demonstration of a software for planning (I do not remember it’s name)for the CIOB members. The evening was not a success because the computers or the software kept crashing.
The story now is very different. There are so many good packages on the market that it is a problem find the one best suited for your specific end product requirements.
During the many years in the Planning Discipline I have used many planning software packages including, P3, Suretrak, Open Plan, Powerproject and others not now heard of much.
I loved the way you could manipulate the programme data via the use of their data bases in Open Plan and P3. But and this is a big "But" I did not like the fact that you had to work on the data in the dark. By this I mean that you did not see the effect of the build up or changes as you worked. You were in fact working the mechanics to achieve the end result i.e. the Bar Chart.
In around 1984 Microplanner planning software had a version for the DOS computers and one for MAC. They were two different ways of working. The DOS way working in the Engine Room the MAC way was making use of icons and graphics. The problem was that most of the industries in this country were into using the IBM processor and therefore it did not catch on.
The advent of MS Windows opened this method of using computers and made the use of software within the grasp of every one as the old saying goes "a picture is worth more then a 1000 words". The problem in the beginning was that the computers were not able to handle the larger up front memory for the graphics. But not any more as computer power is more then capable and improving by the day.
In Powerproject you use the screen to draw the bars and logic links, or not if did not wish to. And it uses "drag and drop" to add calendars, resources, Codes, etc, etc on to the bars. It is all-graphical and yet it can do all the you could do with the "other way of working" and it does it better. I am not going to attempt list the vast capability and specification of Powerproject, but I would urge you to get yourself a demonstration copy and experience it’s power and ease of use. "

Philip,
I would like to know how you would compare Powerproject V8 with the new Open Plan and New P3e.

Regards
Daya

Daya,

Haven’t had my hands on P3e or P3ec so can’t comment on what they’re like, although I do know they are still alot more money than PowerProject.

Each to his own!
When you get used to using a certain piece of software you get to know how to set it up best from the begining and get round it’s weaker points and really make use of it stronger points and you can do it quicker then if you used software you don’t know too well because it presents too much of an effort to change to something different and new or you do not enough time to do so because of pressure at work to produce results asap.
Best of Luck
Regards
Daya

Alistair,

Whats new then??
Just wait for the reactions.......

Regards,
Darrell

"Just a short reply to MPX conversion. If you use V7 or V8 of powerproject you can obtain a macro from Astadev that will set up a button on your toolbar. This allows export and import of MPX programmes in both PP and MSP."

A word of warning: check the dates once the import/export is done - it is not perfect and large discrepancies can be found.

Daya, you can find Sciforma’s MPX2000 here:

MPX2000

Bernard Ertl
eTaskMaker Project Planning Software

Gents

If you want to build a outhouse not exceeding 10 activities, then MSP is the one to use. Comparing MSP and P3 is like comparing a Mini Vs a 747 jumbo.

Really, there is not even a close comparison between P3 and MSP. Look at the cost, MSP less then 1000 dollars and P3 over four thousand dollars. Everone is not nuts to spend over 4k if they could do the job for less then 1k,especially Contractors.

So suggest nipping the thread, if you want to do good planning and Scheduling use P3 WIN for constructon.

If you want to make a small presentation bar chart or plan building a home or a few engineering activities, use MSP.
Cheers Bill G

Alexandre
Thank you very for that information, but where do I get Sciforma MPX2000. Is it a seperate software package from the MS range?
Regards
Daya

Hi David,

Sorry for the late reply, as the thread has just been re-surrected, but I think Messrs Heesom, D. and Mahdjoubi must have been some academics, that had no experience of practical planning, according to the their ratings of software. In fact brain dead may cover their answers better. Probably a couple of marketing surveyors, who have been smoking some strange green stuff.

To input and generally use - got to be PP.
To monitor a project and get usefull data out of - P3.
Cost - PP
Support you can talk to - PP
Client base usage or requirement in UK - P3

I really would like to say PP is the best, I use it more of the time exactly because it easier to use but somehow it often has that annoying habit of not quite giving you what you want.

Hard choice, for the money PP but somhow P3 has often just got that edge when you need it.

David,

Did you find that independent Project Planning software review on the web? If so, can you let me know where you found it? Also, do you have access to any other similar reviews?

Regards,

Gary France

Daya,
If what you are comparing functionality wise, is to TP or PP. Where Functionally is concerned, in my opinion, TP/PP falls down in many other ways. (Hey, & no disrespect intended, this is just an opinion).

Regards,
Darrell


This last reply is on the defence.
I think that if you have to go into another software to do any function that should be part of your original planning software IT IS A FAILURE IN FUNCTIONALITY!
Daya

[deleted by Moderator]

Although SureTrak can’t store more than 1 baseline. But there is an utility in SureTrak to store/load the baseline data in CSV format. Hence user can use that to compare other baseline data.

Hey all!!!
Sorry i am only a guest have been trying to join for days but it just wont let me for some reason!!!! Oh well!

To vere away from the technical issues you guys have discussed and to get back to the real heart of this thread may i just say that whilst Powerproject Teamplan is usable i must back the corner of P3 and Suretrak. I have now used both PP5 & 7 and although i can see the dramatic steps being taken i still find that in certain aspects it falls short of P3/suretrak.

A demonstration of my critisism is the visual aspects of PP/TP, to my knowledge you are unable to show target bars for each activity whereas showing Target bars in P3 is both easy to do and indeed to view. I think that at the end of the day the software has to show things in a particularly good manner, PP/TP however i find falls short on the display of information aspects.

Another one and again this maybe my lack of knowledge but i am not a great fan of the way progress shading is shown on the activity bars, can this be changed?????

Alistair Sharp

Hi Bernard
Thank you for the comment.
A "fundamental" requirement for critical path scheduling is closing the network and not leaving Activities dangling, unless there is a reason for doing so. If for example one had a string of activities all linked in accordance to its logic with FS I think that would be fine. On the other hand if one used SS the I feel it need to be closed with a FF or visa versa, don’t you agree.
Regards
Daya

Dear Bernard Ertl
On the 12 November 2003 you posted this in reply to David Bardolli posting ....

"IMHO, claiming the lack of a hammocking (or even just the lack of FF relationships for that matter) is a fundamental flaw is quite a reach. But I guess it depends on whether you are painting pictures or performing critical path analysis..."

Did you mean using Powerproject as akin to painting pictures, if not I appologise.

Powerproject can be used as a very basic bar chart drawing tool, but if used as it is intended, it can do all you want usually .... if not ASTA does give the user the opportunity to influence the development of the software and you cannot say that for many of the others
Regards
Daya

Another quick note.

I have no experience of P3, but use Suretrak (Because the client wants like it!). I do use MSP because our M+E department produces all there programmes in the format.

But, I maintain that Powerproject is the most easy to use out of all three and produces well presented programmes that ALL understand.

My Votes with Powerproject.

Regards

Gavin

[Inappropriate message deleted by Moderator. Please be cordial to members and guests.]