thanks for the constructive posting on this issue.
i moreless agree with hank, that the more you detailed the more you need monitoring, however it largely depend on the project requirement and the strategies adopted by the site managment team, as some instances the site management require the detailed details to know the status at a given instance and make the concrened personell accountable for the status of the work.
Hi Sigfredo,
I think you hit the nail on the head, except that your level 4 and 5, is the same thing just presesnted in different ways. so for the purpose of this discussion you have four levels, as there is a few other ways of presenting level 4.
I got this from somewhere but I can not remember where. Im now using this as a guide in my work. I hope this helps.
Level 1 - Executive Summary, normally a single page with key milestones and summary activities. This level of detail is normally for an audience not intimately involved in the project. This level of detail may be used to support a proposal on a potential project.
Level 2 - Management Report, normally three to five pages with more milestones,area summary activities, and selected execution activities. This level of detail is normally intended for persons with more than passing interest in the project and some familiarity with the scope. This term may also be used to define the level of detail required for an initial schedule on a new project, normally due 30-60 days after a contract award. This is the period of time when a execution team has time to define and has received sufficient information to layout a project execution plan.
Level 3 - Publication Report, this level of detail supports the monthly reporting to the owner/client on the detailed status of the project and it course to completion.
Level 4 - Execution Level, this is the level of detail that best represents the direct field supervisions short term plans and the publication of the three week look ahead schedules used in the weekly meetings.
Level 5 - Work Packaging, this level of detail can support the finest hour of a turnaround schedule or the drill down of a problem area. It is not normally for general publication and may only be used to do what-ifs
Whilst I appreciate that your information based on Saudi Aramco is relevant to its own operations, Saudi Aramco is nevertheless one Contractor in one country! Again, I note that you are based in Saudi Arabia but perhaps not working for Aramco.
My point is that in the real world outside of Aramco, I personally doubt if their definitions on Levels of Schedule are either realistic or would work.
The Levels of Schedule that I suggested below are based on my own realistic experience worldwide (including Saudi Arabia), and I am sure that vast majority of LSTK Contracts will require a detailed working schedule (Baseline Schedule) long before the execution of preliminary engineering is completed, as required by Aramco. Aramco’s definitions are doubtless accurate and workable for its own internal well controlled systems, but I am unconvinced that they are practical outwith of such systems in the wider world.
Thanks for your input. Mean time I happen to dig various sites for the same concern. And I found the following article for the subject matter for ARAMCO Projects in KSA. I will paste the contents here. Hope it will help someone.
Saudi Aramco has defined four levels of schedules developed and maintained at various stages of the project life cycle.
The Saudi Aramco Project Management Team (SAPMT) will provide the basic guidance of the Projects scope and establish the Project Master Schedule (Level I). As project definition becomes more advanced, the level of detail expands. Project milestone dates are firmed up during the development of the design basis and reflected in the Project Milestone Schedule (Level II). A Project Summary Schedule (Level III) is prepared during preliminary engineering. This schedule becomes the basis for developing Control schedules (Level IV) for detail engineering, procurement, and construction with input from contractors, subcontractors, and vendors.
The Project Control Schedule is the detailed Level IV schedule based on a CPM network prepared by the Contractor indicating the sequence in which the contractor plans to execute the work, satisfy manpower and equipment requirements, deal with access and work space limitations, and reflect activities of subcontractors, equipment vendors and suppliers.
There was a thread on this same subject elsewhere in this forum some time ago, but I am unable to find it!
A LSTK project implies that you have a reasonable number of work activities, which may or may not be already set out in a WBS.
Generally, the Level 1 Schedule is that broad-brush minimal information A4 sized bar chart stuck ignominiously into the Contract documentation (if you are lucky!!)
The Level 1 Schedule will contain the minimum number of activities, showing (perhaps) only the primary disciplines. It should show all of the relevant contractual milestones and it will be in bar chart form only – there will probably be no network and no critical path.
The Level 2 Schedule will be a slight fleshing-out of the Level 1; if the project has several different areas of work, these will be separately identified. Again, the Level 2 Schedule will offer a broad view, but it should also include a basic network and it should indicate the main critical paths. This will be the level often used for the Contractor and Client at Board/Senior Management level so that they can get a helicopter view and it will not contain too much detail so that they don’t become too confused!
Level 3 is generally the Site Office/Management working schedule, which will show all of the main work activities in detail, and which will form the basis of the Baseline Schedule for future reference for progress payments (and for claims!!). It is the Level 3 Schedule that on some projects may require review or even approval by the Client, and it will contain all of the relevant critical paths. The Level 3 should be sufficiently detailed to include all of the work activities throughout the entire contract period, and of all the schedules, the Level 3 will probably have the most activities.
Level 4 will focus in on a more detailed manner on a smaller section of the Works, often used for discipline coordination in selected areas of the project. Level 4 can also be the Contractor’s confidential in-house schedule used for his own internal progress measurement purposes, particularly with regard to the progress in complex parts of the project or in the progress of Subcontractors.
I thought that the PEO had produced some guidelines in regard to the various levels of schedule, but I cannot find this info from their website; maybe Gary can clarify!
You’re right when the WBS is already defined for your project, but what if there’s nothing defined yet. I think (as you mentioned) the levels you define in the WBS depends on how much and how deep your schedule has to be. When you make a schedule for a contractor (single dicipline) you can do much more detail as when you’re planning multiproject all fases all diciplines for the owner of a plant.
So is there a standard for level 1,2,3,4, etc.. ???
Different level depends upon your Work break down structure of project.ie depends upon on the details you monitoring the Project.
If You are Consultant & monitoring 4-5 Project your details of Level will be different.
But If you are contractor Your level of Monitoring the project will be different.
Ravi
Good question.
I think you better ask your superior what he thinks what is the level 1. Each next detail is one level deeper.
I always hear a lot of people talking about level 1,2,3,4 whithout knowing which level they mean (but is sounds good) So better define it your self (for each project it can be different thats my experience)
RE: Levels of Schedule
thanks for the constructive posting on this issue.
i moreless agree with hank, that the more you detailed the more you need monitoring, however it largely depend on the project requirement and the strategies adopted by the site managment team, as some instances the site management require the detailed details to know the status at a given instance and make the concrened personell accountable for the status of the work.
i hope there are some takers for this
cheers [.....]
waseem saber
RE: Levels of Schedule
Hi Sigfredo,
I think you hit the nail on the head, except that your level 4 and 5, is the same thing just presesnted in different ways. so for the purpose of this discussion you have four levels, as there is a few other ways of presenting level 4.
Regards
Philip
RE: Levels of Schedule
Hi guys,
I got this from somewhere but I can not remember where. Im now using this as a guide in my work. I hope this helps.
Level 1 - Executive Summary, normally a single page with key milestones and summary activities. This level of detail is normally for an audience not intimately involved in the project. This level of detail may be used to support a proposal on a potential project.
Level 2 - Management Report, normally three to five pages with more milestones,area summary activities, and selected execution activities. This level of detail is normally intended for persons with more than passing interest in the project and some familiarity with the scope. This term may also be used to define the level of detail required for an initial schedule on a new project, normally due 30-60 days after a contract award. This is the period of time when a execution team has time to define and has received sufficient information to layout a project execution plan.
Level 3 - Publication Report, this level of detail supports the monthly reporting to the owner/client on the detailed status of the project and it course to completion.
Level 4 - Execution Level, this is the level of detail that best represents the direct field supervisions short term plans and the publication of the three week look ahead schedules used in the weekly meetings.
Level 5 - Work Packaging, this level of detail can support the finest hour of a turnaround schedule or the drill down of a problem area. It is not normally for general publication and may only be used to do what-ifs
RE: Levels of Schedule
Stuart,
I agree with you,
Most of the time bij i dont go deeper than level 3.(for example thats installing equipment in an area)
Level 4 (and deeper) is (most of the time) the level contractors use to collect progress information, or to manage materials etc.
I think people should always realise, the deeper you plan, the deeper you have to monitor.
regards
Henk
RE: Levels of Schedule
Imam,
Whilst I appreciate that your information based on Saudi Aramco is relevant to its own operations, Saudi Aramco is nevertheless one Contractor in one country! Again, I note that you are based in Saudi Arabia but perhaps not working for Aramco.
My point is that in the real world outside of Aramco, I personally doubt if their definitions on Levels of Schedule are either realistic or would work.
The Levels of Schedule that I suggested below are based on my own realistic experience worldwide (including Saudi Arabia), and I am sure that vast majority of LSTK Contracts will require a detailed working schedule (Baseline Schedule) long before the execution of preliminary engineering is completed, as required by Aramco. Aramco’s definitions are doubtless accurate and workable for its own internal well controlled systems, but I am unconvinced that they are practical outwith of such systems in the wider world.
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
RE: Levels of Schedule
Hi friends,
Thanks for your input. Mean time I happen to dig various sites for the same concern. And I found the following article for the subject matter for ARAMCO Projects in KSA. I will paste the contents here. Hope it will help someone.
Saudi Aramco has defined four levels of schedules developed and maintained at various stages of the project life cycle.
The Saudi Aramco Project Management Team (SAPMT) will provide the basic guidance of the Projects scope and establish the Project Master Schedule (Level I). As project definition becomes more advanced, the level of detail expands. Project milestone dates are firmed up during the development of the design basis and reflected in the Project Milestone Schedule (Level II). A Project Summary Schedule (Level III) is prepared during preliminary engineering. This schedule becomes the basis for developing Control schedules (Level IV) for detail engineering, procurement, and construction with input from contractors, subcontractors, and vendors.
The Project Control Schedule is the detailed Level IV schedule based on a CPM network prepared by the Contractor indicating the sequence in which the contractor plans to execute the work, satisfy manpower and equipment requirements, deal with access and work space limitations, and reflect activities of subcontractors, equipment vendors and suppliers.
Regards,
Imam Baig
Planning Engineer
RE: Levels of Schedule
Imam,
There was a thread on this same subject elsewhere in this forum some time ago, but I am unable to find it!
A LSTK project implies that you have a reasonable number of work activities, which may or may not be already set out in a WBS.
Generally, the Level 1 Schedule is that broad-brush minimal information A4 sized bar chart stuck ignominiously into the Contract documentation (if you are lucky!!)
The Level 1 Schedule will contain the minimum number of activities, showing (perhaps) only the primary disciplines. It should show all of the relevant contractual milestones and it will be in bar chart form only – there will probably be no network and no critical path.
The Level 2 Schedule will be a slight fleshing-out of the Level 1; if the project has several different areas of work, these will be separately identified. Again, the Level 2 Schedule will offer a broad view, but it should also include a basic network and it should indicate the main critical paths. This will be the level often used for the Contractor and Client at Board/Senior Management level so that they can get a helicopter view and it will not contain too much detail so that they don’t become too confused!
Level 3 is generally the Site Office/Management working schedule, which will show all of the main work activities in detail, and which will form the basis of the Baseline Schedule for future reference for progress payments (and for claims!!). It is the Level 3 Schedule that on some projects may require review or even approval by the Client, and it will contain all of the relevant critical paths. The Level 3 should be sufficiently detailed to include all of the work activities throughout the entire contract period, and of all the schedules, the Level 3 will probably have the most activities.
Level 4 will focus in on a more detailed manner on a smaller section of the Works, often used for discipline coordination in selected areas of the project. Level 4 can also be the Contractor’s confidential in-house schedule used for his own internal progress measurement purposes, particularly with regard to the progress in complex parts of the project or in the progress of Subcontractors.
I thought that the PEO had produced some guidelines in regard to the various levels of schedule, but I cannot find this info from their website; maybe Gary can clarify!
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
RE: Levels of Schedule
Ravi,
You’re right when the WBS is already defined for your project, but what if there’s nothing defined yet. I think (as you mentioned) the levels you define in the WBS depends on how much and how deep your schedule has to be. When you make a schedule for a contractor (single dicipline) you can do much more detail as when you’re planning multiproject all fases all diciplines for the owner of a plant.
So is there a standard for level 1,2,3,4, etc.. ???
Regards
Henk
RE: Levels of Schedule
Different level depends upon your Work break down structure of project.ie depends upon on the details you monitoring the Project.
If You are Consultant & monitoring 4-5 Project your details of Level will be different.
But If you are contractor Your level of Monitoring the project will be different.
Ravi
RE: Levels of Schedule
Imam,
Good question.
I think you better ask your superior what he thinks what is the level 1. Each next detail is one level deeper.
I always hear a lot of people talking about level 1,2,3,4 whithout knowing which level they mean (but is sounds good) So better define it your self (for each project it can be different thats my experience)
Regards
Henk