Guild of Project Controls: Compendium | Roles | Assessment | Certifications | Membership

Tips on using this forum..

(1) Explain your problem, don't simply post "This isn't working". What were you doing when you faced the problem? What have you tried to resolve - did you look for a solution using "Search" ? Has it happened just once or several times?

(2) It's also good to get feedback when a solution is found, return to the original post to explain how it was resolved so that more people can also use the results.

Are You Late Before You Start ?

18 replies [Last post]
Jihad Daniel
User offline. Last seen 8 years 2 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 May 2005
Posts: 99
Groups: None
You may be surprised in reading the title of this thread but this happens. It’s very difficult for owners to resist to the temptation of having the shortest duration of the project with the least expenses. However, some projects are unrealistically estimated by the Owner to complete for example imagine completing a 2 basements and 42 floors’ turnkey residential tower building’ project in 18 months (tested and commissioned). In the bidding stage, the Contractor has 2 options: to decline or to accept and if awarded, he will be obliged to be orientate on claims to get an extension of time at an earlier stage. Therefore, as the Contractor knows that he is late before he starts work,he will not put immediately extra resources unless he is really squeezed at the late stage. In the other hand, Contractor’s planner is forced to make an unrealistic preliminary planning to show the owner that the Contractor can finish on time, when he is quite sure that no way that his company will reach the contract completion date.
There will be a mistrust between Contractor and Owner and they are lieing to each other from the beginning.

Regards,
J. Daniel

Replies

Sunil Kumar
User offline. Last seen 7 years 51 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 84
Groups: None
The contrator must also review quality lest he ends up maintaining a team ( maintenance team an hidden cost ) till the maintenace period. Its some of the higerups in the company who take up rash decisions for the sake of money and the end result " THE BOSS IS ALWAYS RIGHT "
Darrell ODea
User offline. Last seen 18 years 6 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 174
Groups: None
Bill,
Given that a time constraint does not fit with available accomodation? Then perhaps additional accommodation can be provided and at the relevant logistical cost?? In order to achieve the programme??

Does this make sense??

Then the Client can take it or leave it??

Regards,
Darrell
Bill Guthrie
User offline. Last seen 7 years 46 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
Hi Jerry

And again, if a good planner reviews the tenders and tear them apart, then he can advise
1. schedule is attainable
2.schedule not attainable.
What is a schedule? RESORUCES FORCAST TO DO A TASK WITHIN A GIVEN TIMEFRAME.
I do not know about buildings, but in peto chem, the most imporiant thing is to verify resources proposed.

If a task is planning piping on offshore platfomms and so many pipefitters are required to do a task, one must look at accommidations available, by task. Because so many beds avaiable, and this controls, thats it. Same with equipment.
Offshore its limited and must be planned accordingly.

Again I agree with you, contractors have a choice, take it or leave it, and if they take it the client must award the contract based upon what is known at that time about a contractors schedule. If its full of lies and impossible dreams, then better look at another bidder.

Bill Guthrie
User offline. Last seen 7 years 46 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
Hi Jerry

And again, if a good planner reviews the tenders and tear them apart, then he can advise
1. schedule is attainable
2.schedule not attainable.
What is a schedule? RESORUCES FORCAST TO DO A TASK WITHIN A GIVEN TIMEFRAME.
I do not know about buildings, but in peto chem, the most imporiant thing is to verify resources proposed.

If a task is planning piping on offshore platfomms and so many pipefitters are required to do a task, one must look at accommidations available, by task. Because so many beds avaiable, and this controls, thats it. Same with equipment.
Offshore its limited and must be planned accordingly.

Again I agree with you, contractors have a choice, take it or leave it, and if they take it the client must award the contract based upon what is known at that time about a contractors schedule. If its full of lies and impossible dreams, then better look at another bidder.

Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 11 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Hi PP,

Good question as to why Contractor’s agree to time schedules which are unattainable from the start!! ;-)

I suppose no Contractor wants to turn down a project, and by their nature, Contractor’s tend to be optimistic in nature. They ALWAYS believe that they can overcome any challenges put in their way; sometime the “hairier” the challenge (as Darrell pointed out!!) the more optimistic they become!!

And far be it from me to suggest that Contractors are more dazzled by $ or Euro signs in their eyes than by the practicalities of completing a project to schedule.

Cheers,

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
Darrell ODea
User offline. Last seen 18 years 6 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 174
Groups: None
Are You Late Before You Start ?

JD.

If a "Contractor" is aware that time is a constraint, that will have to be dealth with, then most contractors are fairly scrupulious now-a-days anyway. I have to believe that no Contractor wishes to end up in a claims situation.
Most will assess the risk to time, and add in a value to that risk, or charge a premium in recognition of that risk.

I personally believe that anything can be done where programming and planning are concerned. Have worked on a few "hairy" projects to say the least. More often than not, programme times / durations are pretty accurate, even from the clients side. And often but not always, what can let a project down is, might I suggest, "Design Development, Decision & Deployment". The Deadly "D"s.

Regards,
Darrell
X Planner
User offline. Last seen 8 years 7 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 78
Groups: None
...for all other decent people here

i just wanna say i’m not a god of planning and i’m not a super planner as well, but i’m a normal planner learning from all of u and sometimes i try to help as much as i can

Thanx
X Planner
User offline. Last seen 8 years 7 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 78
Groups: None
i’m not surprising that someone like u(with this background) is talking that way.

i mean what r u trying to say here..is it a try to show off or a try to increase ur number of posts..and where is the moderator of this forum ??

are u bored or disperate or maybe a loser????

what about the other polite people in this forum, are they happy with ur attitude?

for ur information this is a formal and profesional forum, if u r not able to control urself and behave then u r a big loser & big mouth.

i don care about your shit but u still donot have the right to evaluate people.

I doubt that u r a successful planner or person...cos u r offensive but u r still a big loser.

have something to say about the subject or to help people or to get help then say it, Else shut ur big mouth up





Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 17 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
Hi planner planner,

Somehow you have tried to tell us your are the guru of all planning, You run 60 projects, and you do not have a clue what you are doing, as gauged from some of the questions you are asking, you need a quick course in the basics of the subject, which will take about two hours, so reveal yourself. You are either Josetph in his amazing dream coat’or Moses or Alexander the great, naybe Genghis Khan or Napoleon or maybe Rommel or Hitler ( Not a practical solution) or maybe OLLie North or Bush, or even Saddam Hussein himself, maybe Hannibal with his elephants going over the alps, or there is other possibibilities of the not so greats like Churchil, or Stalin, or lenin or Mao tse Tsung. Maybe you are are the re-incarceration of Tsun Tsu, We as planners would like your credentials, because maybe you are the Messiah we have all been waiting for.
In any event you are a pain in the arse, until you can give honest answers and stop talking bullshit.
X Planner
User offline. Last seen 8 years 7 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 78
Groups: None
Stuart,

I agree with u 100% but if the case is like those unscrupulous clients imposing those unrealistic demands then why did the contractors agree and accept the deal from the begining?
Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 11 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Hi PP,

I have had experience of American, European and Australian international conglomerates forcing – and I mean forcing – contractors into accepting certain terms and conditions, which – as I said earlier – even a blind man could see were impractical from the contractor’s point of view.

For example, I have just finished being involved in a case where the Client is a European Consortium of major international companies and the Contractor is another major international specialist in his field. After the project was underway, the Client enticed the Contractor into accepting a six month reduction in his schedule in exchange for a big bag of money, by way of a Change Order.

The Contractor accepted the money and reduction in his schedule, but soon realised that he could not meet the reduced schedule, primarily because the Client did not keep his end of the bargain in terms of providing necessary support to meet the new completion date. Indeed, the Contractor later realised that he was set up, since at the end of the day, the Client’s project was completed ahead of the original schedule (by three months) for a very little additional cost, since the Contractor had to forfeit almost all of the additional cost made available under the Change Order. The case ended up expensively in tears and arbitration.

So my point is that there are a large number of international unscrupulous Clients out there, who impose unrealistic demands on Contractors, and this is a world-wide practice!!

Hope this clarifies,

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
X Planner
User offline. Last seen 8 years 7 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 78
Groups: None
Well stuart

can u tell us then how these scenarios go in your country and according to your experience...

we would love to know how the clients think there and also the contractor’s....

by the way ,donot forget that most of these companies in the Middle East are Multi-national and the people there as well(Background issue).

Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 11 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Philip,

I am not entirely sure of which utopian environment you work, but in my experience, projects are not always put out to competitive tender, the Client usually selects the lowest tender where there is a selection, and he then proceeds to brow-beat the Contractor into offering an even lower price and also adds further restrictions on scheduling.

I am not sure what you mean by saying the Client has a duty to himself (?), but again in my experience, it is not ‘a few bucks’ at stake, but can be millions of Euros.

IMHO, Clients very often – if not usually – have only their own interests at heart and do not care for the well being of the Contractor, and against this background, it is noted that this thread began – unsurprisingly – in the Middle East.

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 17 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
Hi Stuart,

I think the client has a duty to himself, ’why put the project at risk in the effort to save a few bucks’. The point being that when you receive let’s say 7 tenders, reject the highest and lowest, then average the other five, and select the one that is nearest to the averave ofthe five. This means you are protecting your own interest, as well as that of the contractors. You are much less likely to walk out of the project with claims and extra cost.

What Bill said was quite true, if we all score we are all happy in relative simple terms.

Regards
Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 11 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
J.,
I think your answer was already in your comment that “…the Contractor has 2 options: to decline or to accept…”

The Contractor should be able to price everything necessary for his successful execution and completion of the project, and if this requires increased resources (of all sorts) to complete the Works, he can add the relevant costs into his price. If that prices him out of the running, it may be a blessing in disguise.

I have been involved in many projects where a blind man could see that the Contractor could never ever finish by the due completion date; it has ALWAYS ended in tears for the simple reason that when he signs the Contract, the Contractor undertakes to execute and complete the Works in accordance with the project’s clearly stated milestones. Having made that commitment, he is duty and legally bound to carry it out!

Hope this helps,

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
Dayanidhi Dhandapany
User offline. Last seen 3 years 2 hours ago. Offline
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 470
Groups: None
J.Daniel, you are quiet correct. This is the situation prevailing all over the world or atleast wherever i had the experience before. Philip & Bill have given nice reply. Either contractor or client, playing with their buffer. in other words, they have one internal schedule(late finish) and external schedule(early finish), this external schedule is used to call for bidding.

The contractor hopes to recover something through VOs and other matters. Infact (main) contractor also got some buffer(using another schedule) when he calls for a sub-contracting, that is what i understood. That would be the reason no LAD is issued in my previous works, Client and Contractor have some understanding, Contractor very well knows that client is having a weapon of LAD, so he acts smartly to counter this problem through EOT, after all they are also human beings...

Its a big game really..........Planners have to be smart right from the beginning........

I must thank you for bringing up a nice thread on this forum, i hope more answers to come from other pper’s

Cheers!!!

Daya
Bill Guthrie
User offline. Last seen 7 years 46 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
And always remember that Contractors are there for one reason, to make money. Forget allances, etc etc, they want to make a buck. Client should want contractors to make a good profit, however withing the contract limits.

having said that, know of some firms who will bid a job KNOWING they cannot make the completion date and factor in cost of Liquiated damages from the start. They know they will pay.

And contractors who bid a job so cheap, they are loosing money just to get the job, and they hope upon hope they can make profits on changes or extras or claims.

So, distrust of a contractor starts before contract award, and analysis of his tender data tries to root out problems like this from the start, that it is so importiant to tear apart a tender cost and tender bid to see what the contractors intent is, not only lowest bidder.

Regards Bill
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 17 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
Always remember buffers, every client builds in a buffer, and probabaly has a managing contracto, who also builds in a buffer. Remember to do you first schedule honoustly and presnt it as that, everybody is open to negotiation, and will probably give away some of their buffers if you can prove your schedule is practicle/practicable.