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Outstanding vs Snag lists

14 replies [Last post]
Thu, 2005-05-19 09:58
Jihad Daniel
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Dear Colleagues,

Under FIDIC regulations, a building is substantially completed when it passed all required tests. Therefore, a taking over certificate will be issued from the Engineer with the approval of the Employer. The Contractor shall be committed to a certain date to finalize the outstanding items. From the date of issuance of the taking over certificate, the Contractor will be working in the defect period.
But there is a difference in the terms of "outstanding items" and "snagged" or "punched items" as an outstanding item means that after realizing the E/M testing, an item or system is still not functioning well and its test failed. Snag item is a small defect or missing piece that does not affect the whole or separate system.
As an example, if a mechanical system passed the test but a small piece is missing or is defected. Does this mean that the building is still not substantially completed?

Regards,
J. Daniel
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Replies

Mon, 2005-05-30 08:37
#1
Philip Jonker
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Hi Guys,

There is a simple way to do this, by categorizing punch/snag items.

Category 1: The discipline’s work is substantially complete, ie the toilet seat is in place but has a defect, it is scratched. However a completion certificate can be signed off, with cat 2 & 3 items outstanding.

Cat 2. The scratch on the toilet seat has been removed, or the seat have been replaced, the toilet is ready for commisioning (RFC). RFC can be signed, however, the seat and surround have not been cleaned and sterilized completely, cat 3 items.

Cat 3. During the commissioning period, Cat 3 items arecompleted, that is touch up and cleaning. A limit must be set on when all Cat 3 items are complete. Beneficial occupation can happen while some Cat three and if agreed even some Cat 2 items are outstanding.

Categorizing is a simple way of sorting out the problem, however, it must be agreed up front. It is of course dependent on the type of facility. There is a big difference on what would be allowed in what category, say for example between a petro-chem plant where safety is the ultimate, and a luxury hotel where aesthetics and service is the most important.

Hope this give some insight.

Regards

Philip
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Mon, 2005-05-30 07:47
#2
Jaco Stadler
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O Yes

Razi

I just thought of something else.

To take your example it might sound like a tiolet seat cover is not a big issue but if it was me I would not accept it without a cover because then it becomes a safety issue. What will happen if a small child slip and fell and drown ???

Hard to think but it can happen.

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Mon, 2005-05-30 07:29
#3
Jaco Stadler
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So than does this mean you agree with

Good Morning


I Think the key is "a building is substantially completed when it passed all required tests"

If the Item that is missing stop all required test then it can not be substantional complete.


But then to take your example the Substantial complete certificate kicks in warentee period does this mean I will recieved a reduced warentee on the toilet seat cover.

What happens when you then install the toilet seat cover you damage the Toilet Seat. Remember I have given you your certificate already for the toilet.


If you walk in and buy a Brand New Porshe what will you do if the supplier tells you they are still waiting for the correct seat but that the current seat without a cover is fine. And that because the have issued you a vehicle you must pay for it and that the warentee is in effect immediatly.



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Mon, 2005-05-30 07:12
#4
Razi Khan
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Hi Jaco

To me “effect” of the “missing part” would be the most important criteria for reaching to the conclusion. So I will just modify your example to make myself clearer.

“Toilet Seat” Not Installed – Significant Effect.
“Toilet Seat Cover” Not Installed – Insignificant Effect.

Moreover Jaco turning abusive is sign of loosing argument.

Cheers
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Mon, 2005-05-30 05:49
#5
Bill Guthrie
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hI Razi,

You most definately must work for a Contractor, not a client.
Contractors know all the ins and outs to make a buck.

cheers, from the clients side.

From the Clients side its A WRITTEN CONTRACT AND ETHICS, and if as the client you are dumb and leave something out,you deserve to pay the piper. WHAT THE CONTRACT STATES IS THE GOLDEN RULE.

bill
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Mon, 2005-05-30 05:12
#6
Jaco Stadler
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Well Razi
Now I have heard everything.

If I ask you to build me a House and you build the house and your plumming subcontractor has a problem with the delivery of the toilet you expect me to pay you for the house (and even let the warentee period run) even though I can not sh,,,,,.

Wel in short Razi dont talk to much Sh,,,,


Cheers
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Sun, 2005-05-29 07:18
#7
Razi Khan
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Hi,

I think literal interpretation of Contract and its implementation is not always viable. "Contract" does not only contain letters but have spirit also. This "spirit" is judge of intention.

So if the "missing part" is beyond the reasonable control of Contractor and its effect is not so significant than the Contractor should not be held responsible and "Substantial Completion Certificate" should be issued to Contractor.

Cheers.
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Sun, 2005-05-29 06:14
#8
Shahzad Munawar
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Hi Danial

In your mentioned case, the Works have been substantially completed under the Contract and you may ask the Employer for the issuance of " Substantial Competion Certificate"

As regrads the sngags list and punch list, it may not effect on substantial completion coz these items relates to Defect Liability Period


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Sat, 2005-05-28 23:51
#9
Jaco Stadler
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Good Morning


I Think the key is "a building is substantially completed when it passed all required tests"

If the Item that is missing stop all required test then it can not be substantional complete
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Sat, 2005-05-28 23:51
#10
Jaco Stadler
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Good Morning


I Think the key is "a building is substantially completed when it passed all required tests"

If the Item that is missing stop all required test then it can not be substantional complete
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Sat, 2005-05-28 23:50
#11
Jaco Stadler
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Good Morning


I Think the key is "a building is substantially completed when it passed all required tests" If the Item that is missing stopp all required test then it can not be substantional complete
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Sat, 2005-05-28 23:50
#12
Jaco Stadler
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Good Morning


I Think the key is "a building is substantially completed when it passed all required tests" If the Item that is missing stopp all required test then it can not be substantional complete
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Sat, 2005-05-28 23:49
#13
Jaco Stadler
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Good Morning


I Think the key is "a building is substantially completed when it passed all required tests"
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Sat, 2005-05-28 05:10
#14
Amr Elserafy
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Hi,

i think that since the employer can not use the system so, it could not be considered that it is "substantially completed" especially at the E/M systems.

This would be different if you agree on "Parts Completion" or "Phases Completion". In this case you can release parts of the system (i.e. releasing some floors or areas of a building).

Anyway, i think this matter could be settled out if you have good relations with the employer.

Best of Luck.
Regards,

Amr El-Serafy
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