Package equipment installation procedure basically known during Engineering/Procurement phase. Usually first vendor information will arrive in engineering phase (since most data on this stage is standard designs) then final designs of equipments will usually comeup when 3D modeling is in 90%. By then orientation of piping, electrical , instrumentation, noozle oreintations etc will be finalized. Before your equipments/packages arrives on site for installation, everyhting is known.
gardson
Member for
17 years 3 months
Member for17 years3 months
Submitted by Samer Zawaydeh on Wed, 2009-07-29 18:10
Say the package unit includes pumps, tanks and equipment for that single package unit. So during procurement Im dealing with it as a single unit. But when installing the contents of the package I would have to go through each item and estimate duration and manhours for it.
So how come each package unit will be identified as 1 unit?
Im probably asking a stupid question but Im not acquainted with such business. So I would like to thank you Mike, Samer and Scarlett for replying and trying to help.
Member for
16 years 3 months
Member for16 years3 months
Submitted by Scarllet Pimpernel on Wed, 2009-07-29 04:30
This is standard situation. Each party is in a different country. But with communication through email and phone, you can solve most of the problems. You need to identify the Project Manager with previous or similar knowledge, Designer, and the Key Expeditors with similar knowledge. Usually this will all available with the Engineering Company.
Tonnage is used for the Fabrication and Erection of Steel. For piping, equipment and electrical works, it is better to use Nos and systems.
Usually for plants such as this the basis requirement of the Employer would be for a modeling software for all systems. This is a 4-D model for all systems. It will enable you to track the design and the construction in 3D and with time. This is a basic requirements for plants.
With kind regards,
Samer
Member for
17 years 3 months
Member for17 years3 months
Submitted by Ahmed Elkordy on Tue, 2009-07-28 03:37
And the project, and Engineer are in a different country :]
Im surprised to the limited amount of information on the internet regarding Methanol plants construction.
Im giving durations according to a factor Im deriving that combines tonnage, dimensions and quantity. That, along with correcting special cases, Im sure will yield....nothing! But its something until I get more data.
Thanks
Member for
17 years 3 months
Member for17 years3 months
Submitted by Samer Zawaydeh on Mon, 2009-07-27 17:33
Usually you can meet with the Designers of the Plant, and you can build your sequence of construction. Process Experts that will run the commissioning of the plant are usually the best source of information.
From experience, I can assure you that even if you sit down with them in the same room for a year, they will not tell you the exact step by step requirements. This is privilaged information for the design company.
Are you on the Contractor side?
Best Regards,
Samer
Member for
17 years 3 months
Member for17 years3 months
Submitted by Ahmed Elkordy on Mon, 2009-07-27 03:25
The Steel and Concrete structures are not the problem. My problem is the process equipment and package units (like the subject of the thread), thats why i asked for someone with any experience in Methanol or similar plants.
Anyway more information about the plant is underway.
Thank you so much
Member for
17 years 3 months
Member for17 years3 months
Submitted by Samer Zawaydeh on Sun, 2009-07-26 18:32
Lets take it one step at a time and you can build it up accordingly.
1. You need to have a meeting with all parting and agree on the Inspection and Test Plan for the project. This is usually done under the Project Manager umbrella and attended by the specialists.
2. Material Submittals.
3. Shop Drawings.
4. Procurement
5. Construction.
6. Testing and Commissioning.
Assuming that you are working for the Main Contractor, then the first thing that you need is to complete the Structure. Since the Structure is steel, then you need to complete the design of the steel structural and fabricate, treat and ship it to site. Accordingly, we have the following activities:
a. Design of Steel Structure
I. Submit Design Calcuation for all structures.
II. Approve Desing Calculations for all structures: Main Members, Secondary Members, Connections, Bolts, nuts, flashing, cold formed sections, etc.
b. Submit Shop drawings for approval.
c. Fabricate the Steel Structure.
This is done by monitoring the following activities (By Ton) each member:
I. Procuring the Steel.
II. Fabrication.
III. Treatment (Painting or Galvanizing)
IV. Shipping to Site.
V. Arrival at site.
It is recommended that you use a hand held scanner with bar coding for each member because you will have at least 30,000+ members for a such a plant.
Once you have designed the steel structure, then you can know the loads for the design of the footings.
Once the footings are designed then you can submit the following:
A. Material for the Concrete design mix
B. Shop drawings for the Footings.
C. Site Layout and start of Excavation.
D. Start Procurement of Steel.
E. Start Construction.
Under Construction you need to divide the project into areas or zones as per Layout.
Then you creat a separte small schedule for each building or part as following
1. Substructure
a. Excavation
b. Layout of Footings
c. Shuttering of Footings.
d. Reinforcement of Footings + installation of Anchor bolts.
e. Inspection of works by Engineer
f. Casting of Footings.
g. Deshuttering.
h. Insulation of footings.
i. Fill in layers around footings+ Trench making if any.
j. Casting of Blinding for Slab on Grade
k. insulation of blinding
l. Reinforcement of Slab on Grade
m. Installation of E/M works.
n. Inspection by Engineer
o. Casting of Slab on Grade
2. Superstructure
i. Erection of Steel Columns
ii. Erection of Beams and Rafts
iii. Erection of secondary beams
iv. insulation if any
v. Cladding
vi. Fire Protection of Columns
vii. Cable Trays and ladders.
You can repeat the above process for all levels until you reach the stacks.
3. Electromechanical works.
you will need to understand the systems
1. Mechanical Systems
Piping, Ducting, Fire Systems, etc
2. Electrical Systems.
Lighting, Power, Lighting Protection, Emergency, Fire Alarm, etc.
4. Testing and Commissioning.
Make sure that you read the specification and quality manuals.
You need to read for 3-4 months and start building the Schedule part by part.
Like you said there must be some sort of sequence for plant installation. Although, why would it have anything to do with the sequence of the process itself? theres no logic linking installation to operation.
If for example a pump boosts water up a building, you dont have to erect the pump then the pipes then the building.
I studied the available information regarding the process but its not enough to do anything. I requested more information.
I was thinking maybe sequencing according to tonnage so as to give activities invloving high manhours or prolonged cranes usage longer durations and later start dates in the submitted schedule to reduce risk.
Member for
17 years 6 monthsHi, If anyone can share
Hi, If anyone can share schedule for Methanol Plant , that would be helpful. This is my email mazura_brennan@yahoo.com
Thank you in advance.
Member for
17 years 6 monthsHi, If anyone can share
Hi, If anyone can share schedule for Methanol Plant , that would be helpful. This is my email mazura_brennan@yahoo.com
Thank you in advance.
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Ahmed,
Yes they require special software. 10 years ago, they were costing around $50K. And it was a project requirement.
If you check with your local Primavera Dealer, they might be able to lead you in the right direction.
With kind regards,
Samer
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Do you have any idea how I can get typical 3d models for such plant? Do they always require special software?
Member for
18 yearsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Ahmed,
Package equipment installation procedure basically known during Engineering/Procurement phase. Usually first vendor information will arrive in engineering phase (since most data on this stage is standard designs) then final designs of equipments will usually comeup when 3D modeling is in 90%. By then orientation of piping, electrical , instrumentation, noozle oreintations etc will be finalized. Before your equipments/packages arrives on site for installation, everyhting is known.
gardson
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Ahmed,
That is a simple thing to do:
PU1
Construct Foundation
Install Vibration Isolation Pads
Install Machine
Install Pumps
Terminate Piping
Terminate Electrical works
Connect Duct Works
Insulate Duct Works.
Testing and Commissioning
PU2
PU3
PU4
etc
You will add more or less the same items that are required for installation.
Best Regards,
Samer
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Thanks Scarlett
Say the package unit includes pumps, tanks and equipment for that single package unit. So during procurement Im dealing with it as a single unit. But when installing the contents of the package I would have to go through each item and estimate duration and manhours for it.
So how come each package unit will be identified as 1 unit?
Im probably asking a stupid question but Im not acquainted with such business. So I would like to thank you Mike, Samer and Scarlett for replying and trying to help.
Member for
16 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Ahmed,
For package units, you plan the shop drawing submission and approval, manufacturing duration, shipment (ETA).
For site activities, you need to capture the installation, testing and commissioning.
So, each package unit will be identified as 1 unit.
with regards to piping, they norms for site installation monitoring is dia-inch.
I hope this will help you.
Thank you,
Scarlett
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Samer
Such software would indeed be very handy.
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Ahmed,
This is standard situation. Each party is in a different country. But with communication through email and phone, you can solve most of the problems. You need to identify the Project Manager with previous or similar knowledge, Designer, and the Key Expeditors with similar knowledge. Usually this will all available with the Engineering Company.
Tonnage is used for the Fabrication and Erection of Steel. For piping, equipment and electrical works, it is better to use Nos and systems.
Usually for plants such as this the basis requirement of the Employer would be for a modeling software for all systems. This is a 4-D model for all systems. It will enable you to track the design and the construction in 3D and with time. This is a basic requirements for plants.
With kind regards,
Samer
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Yes Im working for the Contractor.
And the project, and Engineer are in a different country :]
Im surprised to the limited amount of information on the internet regarding Methanol plants construction.
Im giving durations according to a factor Im deriving that combines tonnage, dimensions and quantity. That, along with correcting special cases, Im sure will yield....nothing! But its something until I get more data.
Thanks
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Ahmed,
Usually you can meet with the Designers of the Plant, and you can build your sequence of construction. Process Experts that will run the commissioning of the plant are usually the best source of information.
From experience, I can assure you that even if you sit down with them in the same room for a year, they will not tell you the exact step by step requirements. This is privilaged information for the design company.
Are you on the Contractor side?
Best Regards,
Samer
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Samer and Mike
The Steel and Concrete structures are not the problem. My problem is the process equipment and package units (like the subject of the thread), thats why i asked for someone with any experience in Methanol or similar plants.
Anyway more information about the plant is underway.
Thank you so much
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Dear Ahmed,
Lets take it one step at a time and you can build it up accordingly.
1. You need to have a meeting with all parting and agree on the Inspection and Test Plan for the project. This is usually done under the Project Manager umbrella and attended by the specialists.
2. Material Submittals.
3. Shop Drawings.
4. Procurement
5. Construction.
6. Testing and Commissioning.
Assuming that you are working for the Main Contractor, then the first thing that you need is to complete the Structure. Since the Structure is steel, then you need to complete the design of the steel structural and fabricate, treat and ship it to site. Accordingly, we have the following activities:
a. Design of Steel Structure
I. Submit Design Calcuation for all structures.
II. Approve Desing Calculations for all structures: Main Members, Secondary Members, Connections, Bolts, nuts, flashing, cold formed sections, etc.
b. Submit Shop drawings for approval.
c. Fabricate the Steel Structure.
This is done by monitoring the following activities (By Ton) each member:
I. Procuring the Steel.
II. Fabrication.
III. Treatment (Painting or Galvanizing)
IV. Shipping to Site.
V. Arrival at site.
It is recommended that you use a hand held scanner with bar coding for each member because you will have at least 30,000+ members for a such a plant.
Once you have designed the steel structure, then you can know the loads for the design of the footings.
Once the footings are designed then you can submit the following:
A. Material for the Concrete design mix
B. Shop drawings for the Footings.
C. Site Layout and start of Excavation.
D. Start Procurement of Steel.
E. Start Construction.
Under Construction you need to divide the project into areas or zones as per Layout.
Then you creat a separte small schedule for each building or part as following
1. Substructure
a. Excavation
b. Layout of Footings
c. Shuttering of Footings.
d. Reinforcement of Footings + installation of Anchor bolts.
e. Inspection of works by Engineer
f. Casting of Footings.
g. Deshuttering.
h. Insulation of footings.
i. Fill in layers around footings+ Trench making if any.
j. Casting of Blinding for Slab on Grade
k. insulation of blinding
l. Reinforcement of Slab on Grade
m. Installation of E/M works.
n. Inspection by Engineer
o. Casting of Slab on Grade
2. Superstructure
i. Erection of Steel Columns
ii. Erection of Beams and Rafts
iii. Erection of secondary beams
iv. insulation if any
v. Cladding
vi. Fire Protection of Columns
vii. Cable Trays and ladders.
You can repeat the above process for all levels until you reach the stacks.
3. Electromechanical works.
you will need to understand the systems
1. Mechanical Systems
Piping, Ducting, Fire Systems, etc
2. Electrical Systems.
Lighting, Power, Lighting Protection, Emergency, Fire Alarm, etc.
4. Testing and Commissioning.
Make sure that you read the specification and quality manuals.
You need to read for 3-4 months and start building the Schedule part by part.
Hope the information helped.
With kind regards,
Samer
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Hi Ahmed
What about the structure that is holding the plant up?
Is it already built?
Best regards
Mike Testro
Member for
17 years 3 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Like you said there must be some sort of sequence for plant installation. Although, why would it have anything to do with the sequence of the process itself? theres no logic linking installation to operation.
If for example a pump boosts water up a building, you dont have to erect the pump then the pipes then the building.
I studied the available information regarding the process but its not enough to do anything. I requested more information.
I was thinking maybe sequencing according to tonnage so as to give activities invloving high manhours or prolonged cranes usage longer durations and later start dates in the submitted schedule to reduce risk.
Thank you for replying.
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Methanol Plant Equipment
Hi Ahmed
I have no idea about ethanol plants either but common sense seems to indicate that there must be some sort of seqwuence for plant installation.
In most industrial plants something goes in at one end and something different comes out the other.
The plant would normally be installed in that sequence - tonnage has nothing to do with it.
Surely you have a schematic layout of the plant showing where all the kit is placed?
Best regards
Mike Testro