4D Planning & Visualisation

can someone send me details/thiesis on IMPROVING CONSTRUCTION PLANNING THROUGH 4D PLANNING

Thanks inadvane

akshay

akshay_m_kawade@yahoo.co.in

Hi Waseem,



I am afraid that what you quote as the limitations of “any 3D/4D modelling tools requires understanding of the Modified Line-of-Balance method” simply isn’t supported by the facts.



I am not sure of the source of your statement, but it patently isn’t correct. Whilst some of the 4D software uses the line-of-balance method, others quite clearly don’t. Synchro for example has it’s own in built CPA planning system and Graphisoft links to any number of different software packages including DYNAProject, Primavera® Engineering and Construction, Primavera Contractor and MS Project.



Gary.

Waseem,

Gantt Charts, Network Diagrams, Line of Balance Charts, 4D visualisation are graphical presentations of the same project computer model. You are right that 4D visualisation requires additional efforts and costs, but with the same accuracy.

Vladimir

Hi! Charles,Gordon, David, Clive Randal, Renjith B, and above all Gary

thanks for the interest shown in the thread started way back in march -2005, i believe this thread is among the very few that have generated so much interest in the forum,so much so that the PEO chairman aired his views on this thread, which is something very uncommon.



Lets get back to the main topic, but i still believe that the market presence for such a tool is very limited and since this cannot appeal the massess so cant sell, however kindly read below the limitations of the of the so called tools and judge yourseleves and as far i am concered i am not gonna buy this yet nor advocate it to mislead the industry..... see below

THE LIMITATIONS

Say Use of DYNAProject or any 3D/4D modelling tools ™ requires understanding of the Modified Line-of-Balance method.This has not been a limitation in Finland or some other EU countries because the Modified Line-of-Balance has beenused there for a long time and every construction engineer is trained in the method. In other

countries, the theory behind the software is not so familiar. The goal of the authors is to show

that Line-of-Balance can be used as a practical tool to schedule and control even specialprojects.

Control action plans are often not analyzed to the full extent possible. In the schedule-planning phase,

the more advanced alternative evaluation features are not well used. However, the situation

seems to be improving with training and there are many projects where the full potential ofthe software is being realized but not fully explored and could not marry the general trends of CPM.

The first alternative results in loss of accuracy and the second results in extra work. The qality of starting data is rapidly improving because contractors are demanding he amount information in the form required by the software.

To achieve effective control a tool that shows the total effects of deviations is needed.

BUT AT WHAT COST ?



cheers



Waseem Saber

Having worked on large heavy oil upgraders and refineries where the 4D tools have been successfully and effectively utilized I would support their use.



Insired by a valuable co-workor, and prior having better tools, I resorted to my own 4D visual presentation attempt using the very incorrect tool: namely MS Power Point. It was a construction sequence involving 113 heavy lifts of vessels, stacked modules, furnaces, small buildings, piperacks, furnaces, pumps, compressors etc. It took me over 40 hours to put together (did I mention Power Point was the wrong tool) but it was crude 3D, showed a sequence (elements floated in and changed colour properly), showed timing and crane positioning and access routes. Though the graphics were primitive it enabled Engineering and Construction people to sit down together, visually get on the same page, and make valuable design, space utilization, and sequence modifications.



After that project I had the priveledge of using what Fluor calls InSequence where I sat down with a 3D-CAD (3D-PDS/Smart Plant Review) designer and broke the facility into elements I wanted. I then modified P3 into the corresponding elements (slight modifications) and the InSequence designer used activity my IDs to tie the chronology into the model. Very visual, great for construction, buildability and logistics and best of all - a great communication tool early on in the project. Took me about 2 days to get ~200 activities correctly set up and integrated.



I would agree that 4D Planning & Visualization isn’t ideal for all projects, but as I’ve seen it used it has been a great tool on these mega-projects. I’m sure we’ll see more of it.



I am excited to see graphic interfaces advance and uploading of P3 data getting smoother.



Cheers,



Charles

anyone else who was really scared as to where David’s post was heading... raise your hands :o).



What we seem to be seeing here is that those of us who’se disciplines do not suit the use of the 4d systems (certain Non-Construction, or Design only Projects) seem to be excessively vehement in their dismissal of this tool.



One of the biggest Issues we all face is getting the message across to senior stakeholders in a format that they understand. We try nice, colourful bar charts, lovely spreadsheets and graphs, but what better than great big colour pictures like cartoons?



I’ve seldom seen a better example of a format tailored to it’s audience, I predict a long and distinguished future..

May I ask what has happened to ’scratch and sniff’ technology. I loved the added dimension it brought to advertisements for Findus ready meals.



David



ps. sorry Gary :-)

Renjith,



The two new tools that we are currently using are…



Graphisoft Constructor 2005, details of which can be found at Graphisofts Website



And another new product called Synchro, details can be found on the Synchro Website



Both are excellent tools.



Gary France

Mace

hi every body,

i actually want to know which software/tool you r using for the 3D modeling. Is it is some thing linked with a 3D designing tool like Ideas, Catia or Pro E?

Dear all,



I am amazed at the strength of feeling posted in this thread.



Of course, there is no substitute for good people, but I don’t believe that is the point.



4D software is a brilliant tool and a very powerful communication medium. Let’s think about how important that is. We all create programmes and schedules – then what do we do with them? We communicate them to other people, so anything that makes that communication better and simpler has to be a good thing. Planners have to be good communicators otherwise their work will not be appreciated or indeed understood.



Waseem says there will be no buyers for this idea. I really cannot agree with that for there are a huge amount of people who will want to use this. It is a matter of who you are presenting the programme information to. I have used 3D models of projects to show how / when those projects will be constructed and I have presented these to clients, funders, banks, neighbours, town planners, Governments and many more. It is exactly these sort of people – key shapers of projects – who want to understand the programme but cannot read barcharts, or even worse, network diagrams. These people love looking at such 3D presentations, because they can understand them.



I also believe they are very useful in the site environment.



The opportunity to link a 3D CAD model to a timeframe (hence 4D) is certainly the way forward. Being able to automatically update the 3D model whenever you change the programme is superb. I will certainly be using it. Definite. Without a doubt. It is the way to go.







Gary France

Chairman

Planning Engineers Organisation

I agree with Ronan, there’s no substitute for good people. I invloved with a powerstation where the whole scheme was modeled in 3D down to the hot and cols water plumbing and light swithces. (not linked to programme) Have to admit that it did help at times with items such as pipelines, ducting, etc where you could see instantly how everything interelated with one another. For the general building layout, etc though I don’t think it ever really gave any benefit.

A 3D model linked to a construction programme to create a 4D visualisation is simply a tool.



There is no software available which replaces the intuition and experience of good engineers and construction planners.



When the 3D model is used for a lot more than just 4D visualisations it is very valuable. In our experience, the planners we have worked with find it very useful for communicating their ideas to others who don’t have the patience to read through 100’s of tasks on a Gantt chart. (or who don’t even understand what they are looking at!!)



So, in my opinion, a 4D model is a very powerful communication, visualisation and planning tool. It is only useful though if the people who create it fully understand the project details and client requirements.



You can use the 3D model for so much more ... design co-ordination of building services, management of sub-contractors, preparation of method statements, raising queries with the Architect, production of presentation images. If you are going to create a detailed 3D model of a project... make as much use of it as possible. Linking it to the programme is only one of those uses.



Remember, like all design and planning tools....

rubbish in = rubbish out.

Not every monkey can use these tools.

Schedule in 3D model is like a replay of a 3 years project in only 1 hour. What do you think if we can put such replay in front ?! everything will be more clear and realistic.

thank you for selling your idea for the 4d planning and visualisation but i stongly believe there are no buyers for this idea.



this is not the tool to present the facts,effects and impacts on the programs and if personnel tend to beileve the impact by this tool its better they go back to the basics of the engineering by becoming the good interperator of the drawings etc... and if they cannot then they better stay away.



waseem saber

We have worked recently on some large projects in Hong Kong. We are a 3D modelling company and focus on using the 3D model to review designs and work out co-ordination issues before construction begins on site.



For one of our recent projects we linked the 3D model to the Primavera Programme and the planners found it very useful for exploring alternative construction sequences. It also proved very powerful during meetings with numerous sub-contractors who could quickly understand the phasing of their works in relation to the overall project.



As a structural engineer myself, I can see the visual benefits of 4D in simplifying and making a programme easier to understand.



As to the benefits during construction, we could easily set up the 3D model with a baseline sequence in a ghosted format and the model could be updated weekly or less frequently to do comparisons between the actual progress and planned work. This may be beneficial to show clients and architects the status of progress and also to explain any accelaration or delays in particular areas.



Personally, I think contractors should make more use of detailed 3D models during construction as a co-ordination, visualisation and communication. Adding the 4th dimension time is only 1 benefit of having a detailed 3D model !!



I look forward to others thoughts & comments.



Ronan

We developed and used 3d visualization for Olympic Village (for 1998 Youth Games) construction schedule. It was used for presenting project status for officials (Moscow mayor, etc.). Construction managers did not use it at all, they told that they don’t need 3d model to learn what each activity means. As the result after this project was finished the tool died because nobody wanted to use it. Project participants considered it as a toy. Technically it is not hard.

Regards,

Vladimir

PMI is also interested in hearing from folks with an interest in 4D scheduling.



Bernard Ertl

InterPlan Systems Inc. - Project Management Software, Project Planning Software