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Integration of Cost & Schedule

19 replies [Last post]
Andrew Dick
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As Project Controls Professionals, we should all be aware of the use of an integrated cost and schedule performance measurement baseline (PMB).

Why is it then, as I transition across many projects the project managers are somewhat less than positive about this feature of project controls?

Now I’ve seen it done very well indeed, and I’ve seen it done so badly that it doesn’t exist and has even been elevated to the point where I have been told (I quote) “We don’t have baselines here as we can be measured against them”

I have had engineers responsible for coming up with a budget for their engineering staff not want to even prove that they have enough resources to execute the work they have to do, let alone use the baseline as a tool to check and ratify the current performance and the future required performance.

I suppose that I just get a little frustrated, that there are so many people and companies out there pedalling that ‘Project Controls’ mantra, but soooooooooo many not wanting to use it for what it can do.

Why????
Lack of Skills?
Lack of knowledge?
Lack of desire?
I’ll leave the question open for your responses.

Andy

Replies

Raphael M. Dua
User offline. Last seen 2 years 25 weeks ago. Offline
Dieter & Mike

I agree with you both, strange how people get really hot under the collar , sexist etc when stressed.

Now us really cool P & S’s have seen it all before and have learned to cope and do our very best to produce the best results possible from the input provided !! without getting too stressed

I am giving two papers at the PMI College of Scheduling conference in Chicago (May 4th - 9th).

Then I will be in the UK presenting on Scheduling and how Micro Planner X-Pert gets on with it. On Monday 12th & Tuesday 13th May.

Also having some good guys from a company called Silver Star regarding the integration of Schedule and Risk (I wonder how one rates the risks generated by the Project Manager not listening to the P & S - far too hard :-) )

Anyway the point of this is you are most welcome to attend these sessions - FREE .

Would like to get a group of P & S in Europe together like we have here in Australia, the OZ group is driven by my good mate Andrew Dick, so you know it will be sensible, logical, but more importantly - FUN. Naturally they may be a pint or three involved !

Of course I call this group "The Raffia"

Please contact John Cornish at Micro Planning International UK
john@microplanning.co.uk

Raf
Thank you, Mike.
I will deliver a paper with Russ Archibald (USA) and Peter Mello (Brazil). I feel myself honored to be Russ co-author: http://www.pmforum.org/blogs/news/2008/04/archibald-liberzon-mello-to-sh...

Vladimir
Mike Testro
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 4418
Calm Down Dears
Its only a software blog.
As our own Michael Winner would say.

Can we close this one down now?

Hey Vladimir - good luck on your forthcoming US convention - are you delivering a paper or just listening.

Best regards

Mike T.
Dieter,
I am involved in management of different projects, so I use Spider Project, not just sell it. By the way Spider Project Team (a company that developes Spider Project) has no sales persons at all.
I agree with you that the PM software (Spider, Primavera, Open Plan, etc.) are tools that shall be able to cover management requirements.
In response to your message I listed some requirements that are usual at least in Russia and are not supported by Primavera. You may notice that I did not mention Spider and did not try to sell anything. You answered that I am wrong and that is why I asked your explanations. I don’t want to state anything wrong about our competitors.
I am disappointed with your response though I did not want to put you into a bad light. So excuse me if it can be interpreted this way.
I agree with you that PM implementation starts with the concept development and creation of the requirements to the software that will support organization business needs. These requirements include software features, isn’t it? Nobody suggests to count them.
Best Regards,
Vladimir
Dieter Wambach
User offline. Last seen 6 years 49 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1350
Vladimir
Cool down!
You are a salesman for Spider, I’m a user of P6. So you are oblidged to have a different opinion on P6 than I have. I don’t judge on your PM software Spider.
In Germany we call your assertion on my - not existing in this way - attitude: "Killer Phrase" - without any background or reason say something, to put somebody into a bad light. No further comment.
If you want to receive good information on your competitors, ask them directly!
To work with a pm-software is much much more than Install --> Use --> Automatically be an excellent planner/scheduler or pm. First there must be a concept which must be able to be "married" to the business processes. Especially an integration of time, cost and resource planning requires some know-how and experience. Then you’ll look for a software which may be Primavera, Spider, Open Plan ...
This process is much more than feature counting.
Regards
Dieter
I don’t agree wth you.
I don’t share your attitude to women.
I think that this discussion can show some directions for PM software development and may be interesting for PM software vendors.
Those who don’t know where to find necessary functions may receive useful advice.
I hoped to receive your instructions on the problems that were listed instead of the suggestion "to believe".
Regards,
Vladimir
Dieter Wambach
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1350
Hi Vladimir
You started a discussion on software features. This is an item for salesmen and -women. So you should discuss it with your partners on Primavera side.
But believe me, P6 fulfils most of our needs for an integrated time, cost and resource planning.
Regards
Dieter
Hi Dieter, this topic is not about the software features. So I suggest to create separate discussions on cost (and schedule) simulation features. Please answer me in this new track - I want to know how to enter Resource Assignment Cost (fixed, per unit of quantity, etc.) in P6, how to create project schedule basing on financial constraints, etc. It may become an interesting discussion. Implementing PM systems in the organisations we always start with top management education. This is the only way - when top managers know what to require others will follow these requirements. Best Regards, Vladimir
Dieter Wambach
User offline. Last seen 6 years 49 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1350
Hi Vladimir
Your answer on the P6 features is simply not correct. We use them. By the way: I don’t work for Primavera, I’m a user. I understand that your product covers these items as well – that’s OK.
The topic created by Andy – as I understood – was the ignorance we have to fight against. Many companies and governmental institutions are far away from an integrated planning and still on a „Powerpoint-level“.
On business approach I totally agree with Raphael. This is the only way. Unfortunately reality is not yet 100% how we need it. So we must steadily improve. (Here I am in a very comfortable situation: Management understands and supports how we plan and schedule - and our ways for improvement.) Our restriction is much more the lack of qualified personnel.
Regards
Dieter
Raphael M. Dua
User offline. Last seen 2 years 25 weeks ago. Offline
Andy

Your comments about what are some of the dumbest things requestd by Project Managers is timely.

I have just been told by a South Australian colleague, working for the government, that he is to stop all the work he has been doing for ten years or more as a Planner and Scheduler and he is to become a Project Manager, so he will not need to do that "scheduling stuff".

He is being sent on PM course - which takes five days. To be fair, Planning and Scheduling is mentioned and has a whole twenty minute session in the five days.

No wonder we are getting Flat heads

Raf
Raphael M. Dua
User offline. Last seen 2 years 25 weeks ago. Offline
Andy

Could one say that you are working on the wrong projects!

A Flat forehead is not a pretty sight.

I know from exerience that most users of either MS project and / or P3 and it’s derivatives gave up long go because the software they either chose to use, or worse ... were TOLD to use, was not able to Integrate Time, Resource and Cost Scheduling producing a meaningful result.

As you well know I have been scheduling for a lot of years now, and have always run fully integrated Time/Resource/Cost Controls with the full EVPM (as per AS4817:2006 standard on every project where have been the Senior Planner and Scheduler

But then I am fortunate in using Micro Planner X-Pert for Windows and / or the Macintosh which can actually do this stuff in both Precedence and Arrow format.

I have just take on a multi billion dollar mining project which has used just about everything to date and every "TOP" class engineering consultants and to say the least was not a happy vegemite

It has only taken me four weeks to get a fully operational baseline up and running with X-Pert.

I keep hearing no ones knows about Micro Planner X-Pert, if you look at the preferred plannng and scheduling software survey on www.planningengineers.org and go to survey you will see that X-Pert is running second to Primavera.

Which must mean there are some knowledgable planners and schedulers out there who are avoiding "Flat Forehead Syndome"

Raf
Hi Mike,
I think that after second look to Spider Project you will find many functional features and capabilities that are not supported by MS Project, Primavera, and PowerProject.
Thank you for the suggestion to download PowerProject Trial. Maybe I will do it after return from PMI College of Scheduling conference in Chicago.
Best Regards,
Vladimir
Mike Testro
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 4418
Hi Vladimir

Thats a new one to me.

I have just had a quick look at it and it seems to be quite functional - on a similar level to MS Project.

It is certainly better than P3.

I liked the idea of being able to import from P3 and MS Project.

It does not have the full flexibily of PowerProject.

Why not go to Astadev.co.uk and ask for a 14 day trial of v 10.

Best regards

Mike T.
Mike,
we use Russian PM software Spider Project. Its almost full functional Demo can be downloaded from http://www.spiderproject.ru/demo_e.php?p=2|6

Best Regards,
Vladimir
Mike Testro
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 4418
Hi Vladimir

What software package would you suggest?

Best regards

Mike Testro
Hi Andy,
the answer is simple. Without baseline it is hard to prove that the project is late and has spent more money than expected.

Hi Dieter,
Primavera has poor cost management features. Using Primavera it is impossible
- to simulate that resource is paid for the quantities that had been done, not for hours that were spent,
- to assign resource hour cost that consists of the salary, indirect costs, taxes and other components,
- to simulate project financing and to use cost constraints in project scheduling,
- to use parallel cost estimates (internal cost components, contract cost components, ...), etc.

Regards,
Vladimir
Dieter Wambach
User offline. Last seen 6 years 49 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1350
Hi Andy
May be this is a consequence of the different roles in a project: The engineer wants the most beautiful building, design of piping ready to be exposed in Paris’ Louvre, regarding environmental aspects which will be invented in ten years. Whoever will take care of money? Ignorants! Fools! Do we remember how much money Golden Gate, the Eiffel Tower, Cologne’s Cathedral, Hagia Sophia, Tahj Mahal, the pyramides e.t.c did cost?
On the other side there are the accountants who look for five cent deviation from budget in a 5oo Mio. Euro / Dollar project. The planning tool by design cannot have this quality (???) of data. So they prefer big encapsulated EXCEL sheets independent from the schedule.
We can find very different interests in a project and the PM in general is an engineer with very little or no understanding of financial aspects. A few companies only have a commercial PM at the same level. So frequently there is a big surprise when after project’s termination the costs exceeded budget. In many cases management is satisfied, if someone was found who could be made responsible. But no learning - i.e. good planning with an integrated resource and cost management is essential to prevent from such failures.
May be some realized: I exaggerated a little.
Primavera has good cost and controlling features and it’s really not difficult to use them. But this requires a good concept and support from management e.g. to create overall resource histograms and cash flows.
Regards to Australia!
Dieter
Andrew Dick
User offline. Last seen 8 years 10 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 295
So it seems to be a common thing that all planners have bruises on their foreheads, from beating them against the wall.

Seriously though I think I’ll start another thread and see if we can’t get everyone to write up the most ridiculous requests or demands they have ever had from their managers or customers.

I reckon that will be good reading.

Andy
Mike Testro
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 4418
Hi Andrew

It can get worse than lack of time and cost integration.

I met a site manager once who said that "I don’t want none of them link things in the programme"

When asked why not he replied "Cos if I moves one thing all the uvver buggers move and thats no good to me".

Keep plugging away.

Best regards

Mike Testro.