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Planner v designer

26 replies [Last post]
Sun, 2007-04-01 12:24
baiyi li
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Dear all planners and designers:

I am always intigued by a question as to what is the different between planner and desginer.

For one of my project, I worked as M&E designer. I detailed all the construction method (e.g. fabrication method of the ductwork, prefabrication all the doors and windowns)

However, four year ago, I worked as site planner and also did the same jobs as i did as desginer (e.g. i decided the fabrication method of ductwork). therefore, the designers make decision in construction method, site layout, logistics, and the planner did the same thing. or totolly discard all the designer’s decisions during construction.

is anybody can tell me what is the differece between planner and design



the another problems is the differenct between the words of "planning" and "design".
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Replies

Mon, 2007-06-04 07:25
#1
Richard Spedding
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Professional courtesy is born out of respect. Unfortunately too many of the design team these days do not engender respect, and therefore have not earned the right to expect professional courtesy.
I have lost track of the number of project architects I have taught various aspects of construction, which they knew nothing about. All they appear to be taught at college is the shape, colour and form, nothing about how to build it, or whether it can be built.
Experienced planners can often knock design teams into a cocked hat, whether at VE, brainstorming, workshops or whatever else you may want to call it.
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Mon, 2007-06-04 04:45
#2
Clive Randall
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No the thread title engenders that a planner can take the role of the designer which clearly is not the case.
Somebody must be at the end of the food chain
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Mon, 2007-06-04 03:40
#3
Oliver Melling
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Clive,

Two heads are better than one for anything, I don’t dispute that co-operation between all parties is the key to building robust designs and programmes.

But if adding value through discussion/helping is designing, does that make me a project manager and a cleaner as well as a planner?

We don’t aim to confine the role of the planner, but like stated earlier in the thread, is planner vs designer even comparable?
My OPINION is no.

Regards,

Oliver
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Sun, 2007-06-03 20:44
#4
Clive Randall
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Oliver and Larry
Ever heard of value engineering?
Do you think that is carried out by the original design team, well it is if you want a zero result, in my experience its carried out by the contractor and his team. As for proffessionalism and never questioning the design team, thats why we have crap architecture and buildings fall down. I can only descibe as a revolution the changes that occurred in UK construction when broadgate was built in the 80s. Developers realsied that this intransigent attitude adopted by design teams was dragging the industry further into conflict, and stagnation. The change came via managment contracting in its purest form.
My experience after 30 years in our industry is that the vast majority of designers are like the vast majority of contractors they are ok. They drag out what somebody else drew, put a lable on it and issue it. They have no idea if it works or it dosent. The clever ones make it the contractors or specialist contractors responsibility, and just sit back and hope.
So in a nutshell I cock a hoot to so called proffessionalism, and dissagree with your comments regarding not knowing what I am saying because I am not a x, y or Z proffessional.
We work in an industry that achieves the best by cooperation and questioning, I have no problem with people tearing my programme apart if their comments are thought through, often the contract requires the design team to do this when they have little experience of contracting, so why cant I do it with the design?

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Sun, 2007-06-03 05:44
#5
Larry Bjorn
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Clive,

Key to successful teams are clarity in responsibilities. Brainstorming sessions can be very effective but it has its time and place. I cannot think about anything more disruptive than having some team members questioning the professionalism of other team members – having a planner thinking he should, and can, design a project better than a designer.
Surely, team members should try to contribute in more areas than their specific role, but extending professional courtesy is equally, if not more, important.

Regards,
Larry
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Wed, 2007-05-30 03:31
#6
Oliver Melling
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Clive,

Is it the planners role to come up with concept designs in your given scenario? I would say no.

If a planner has experience in design, then maybe, but they would be working outside their remit. A planner has no requirement to make an input into concept, scheme or detailed design. (Apart from answering questions about anything cost/schedule related)

Obviously its a team game in the initial stages of design and a planner can throw ideas into the pot based upon experiences of passed projects, this however is not design.

Regards

Oliver
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Tue, 2007-05-29 20:48
#7
Clive Randall
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Oliver you said
Sure a designer can schedule his own work on smaller projects, but a planner/scheduler can never design.

I disagree

Some years ago I was the bid leader on a major project involving a state of the art cable stayed bridge. We had world class designers and at the initial brainstorming meeting we went through about 50 designs eliminating them on the basis of time, buildability and cost. These were back of the fag packet designs, not number crunched developed calculations. In my opinion planners are as good at designing as designers, at this extreme level it should be a team game.
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Tue, 2007-05-29 06:53
#8
Ashraf Jahangeer
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Hi Oilver,

You have rightly pointed out there is no objective it seems as it is similar to asking what is difference between Day and Night. Is Night Better Than day

Few days back I also came across a typical question, How can we know the number of activity in a P3 Layout ? After I replied back and asked the originator what is the value of knowing, I got the anaswer that all exercise dont have any value.

This type of exercise dampens our interest in positively participating in forum.

Regards,

Ashraf


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Tue, 2007-05-29 06:37
#9
Oliver Melling
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All,

Is the difference between a planner and a designer a serious question?

Look on a job vacancy, on jobsite for instance. The job description for project planner/planning engineer is completely different than that of a mecahnical / electrical / civil/ HVAC designer.

Sure a designer can schedule his own work on smaller projects, but a planner/scheduler can never design.

The original question seems to have no objective, but achieves debate through the use of "vs"

"project manager vs tree surgeon"
"chiropodist vs used car salesman"
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Tue, 2007-05-29 04:18
#10
Arvin Dayday
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in short they work as a team !!!!

cheers
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Tue, 2007-05-22 09:43
#11
ruben quintal
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based on my experienced, designers are mostly concerned on strength, appearance, & cost of an structure/project while planners goal is to deliver it on time and within budget, that is to formulate,implement,& monitor a methodology that will bring maximum profit. i believe that designers have the capability to make a schedule that will produce the desired results. But when it comes to big & complex projects (eg. high rise,multilevel powerplants & factories), planning/scheduling becomes complicated that the job must be assigned to another team, those who have the right experienced and tools that are capable enough to formulate,implement,& monitor schedule so as to produced the desired results. i will therefore generalize that designers are the most appropriate persons to formulate the plan in simple projects, but when things get complicated, its time to call the planners.

cheers!
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Sun, 2007-04-15 08:40
#12
Anoon Iimos
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using common sense, horse sense, and even non-sense, the one who’s responsible for the method statement is the one who knows exactly what the job is! otherwise it can never be done, so whether or not you are going to hire a Planner or a Designer, just make sure he knows exactly what he’s doing.
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Fri, 2007-04-13 11:05
#13
baiyi li
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who should be responsbile for method statement, is the planner, designer, project manager or the subcontractor’s site manager/engineering?

i think it is the planner’s job to communicate and report and finally input into planning process.

for example, the designer may prefer one work method, but the subcontractor prefer another. it is the planner’s responsibility to communicate and report and finally input into planning process (of course, it may need the designer’s and/or project manager’s approval)
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Fri, 2007-04-13 10:55
#14
baiyi li
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Dear zhang:

Thank you for your input

i would like to give a definition of construction planning as an information-driven, multi-disciplinary process, performed in a series of interactive steps, to analysis, formulating and working out what has to be done, how, by when, by whom, with what and in where, in order to carrying out of a construction project.

Planner is not one person. planner could be and should a team (it is the same that one designer can not do all the design tasks. designer means a team). planner should be responsible for the planning process and put all the inputs together. these inputs include method statement, site investigation, site logistics, space planning and site layout etc. the planner can not do all these thing. but he should be responsilbe for the planning process.
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Fri, 2007-04-13 10:42
#15
Zhang Haixiang
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Clive,
I don’t understand why "time management" is just drawing bar chart without consideing the fundamentals.

"prepare schedule" is not just draw bar chart. Without considering construction method, resource loading ... how to draw the bar chart, how to define construction sequence,how to define duration... but it does not mean the planner is responsible for preparing the construction method...

Planner or say scheduler draw the chart based on (or partly )inputs from others who prepare the construction method...and feed back to/discuss with them whether the method is time effective or can it meet the deadline...

there is so many trades in a project, can a planner prepare construction methods for piling, foundation , DW, structre steel, arch. finishes, HVAC, heavy equipment installation, ,HV/LV installation/testing, process utility...
or, each trade have its own planner, and they draw their own chart.
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Thu, 2007-04-12 09:24
#16
baiyi li
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Dear Clive:

thank you for your sugessitons. I totoally agree with you that planning is different with scheduling.

in my knowledge construction planning is an information-driven, multi-disciplinary process, performed in a series of interactive steps, to analysis, formulating and working out what has to be done, how, by when, by whom, with what and in where, in order to carrying out of a construction project. scheudling is one of reports of planning process.

construction planning process is a multi-disciplinary process. not just planners. it is a team work.


due to the increase demands of planning and the increase complex of building. planning become more difficult to manage. therefore, i would like to:

1, List the formal tasks or considerations or decisions which the planners need to do during construciton planning (e.g, select construction method, planning site logistics, do site waste management plans, etc)----could you give some comments on what are the tasks?

2, List all the information requirement for doing those tasks (for example, what information are reqired for selection of construction method. for exmaple, we may need the drawings, the stutory and the subcontractors’ input etc.)

3, Develop a programme of planning which can do planning of plannning. I thinks this programme of planning can help the planing manager to manage the planning process and manage the whole planning team such as what tasks should be done, and what information are requred and where can get this information and when can get those information and what is the deadline to delivery planning deliverables (e..g when need to publish the work method statement?)


could you please give your comments? (e.g. do you think this research can help you? all the comments are welcome)
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Thu, 2007-04-12 00:14
#17
Clive Randall
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Dear Baiyi

"However, Anumba et al (2000) stated that planning construction activities is increasingly becoming a complex task requiring substantial collaborative practices, with ad-hoc teams created to complete specific projects.

For example, the Site Waste Management Plans will be compulsory due 2007, in order to minimise construction waste.

Fischer et al (2003) and Anumba et al (1997) stated that the layout of the construction site and the organisation of spatial requirements are a critical factor to the success of completion of a construction project, and hence should be taken into account during the planning phase.

my questions are:1, who should do site waste management plans; 2, who should do site layout which is important for the site logistics. and in mine knowledge, the site layout or site place planning should be dynamic and updated within 1 or 2 days. "

Site waste management plan major task of PM and environment team
Fischer and Anumba got it right in that the site layout is a critical factor. It should be very much taken into account when developing a plan. A simple phrase would be if you cant get to it you cant do it. I would propose a simple example of plant. In hospitals plant and equipment can be large and difficult to install. If at the initial planning stage this is not considered you can easily find walls and slabs having to be demolished to allow access for this plant. Hence the planning of deliveries access and logistics generally MUST be considered when drafting programmes.
For me the first draft of the site logistics plan should be undertaken by the tender planner, preferably in consultation with the proposed project manager.
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Thu, 2007-04-12 00:07
#18
Clive Randall
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Zhang

"Hello,
I have read some of your post. It seems that there misunderstanding of the term "planning".

I think here in PP "planning" means time management.
So the planner is focus on time. the main job is to prepare schedule, tracking progress... "

I disagree with you fundamentally

Planning is so much more than time management
One of the problems I find is that people think they can plan because they can draw a bar chart and then monitor it.
That in my opinion is far from the case. Planning has to be very much about site logistics and material supply as it is about time management

For example there is no point drawing up a programme that says you have to place a 1000m3 of concrete per day if no water is available in sufficient quantity to mix the concrete or you cant get that many trucks onto the site or you havent got enough placing equipment.
Planning by its very nature starts from the basic paramateres and develops into a document that others are able to interpret and understand. That to me is planning.
Time management as you express it appears to be the generation of a bar chart without considering the fundamentals forgive me if I have interepreted you incorrectly Zhang
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Wed, 2007-04-11 04:57
#19
Richard Spedding
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Hi Baiyi Li,

1, who should do site waste management plans.
2, who should do site layout which is important for the site logistics.

1) The construction team - particularly the construction manager and the planner.
2) The site logistics layout will be a ’live’ document as logistics will always change during the course of the project. The basis should be set out by the construction team as a whole, with major inputs from the PM, Construction Manager, Package or Site Managers and of course the planner. Detail will evolve as the Works proceed.
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Tue, 2007-04-10 21:14
#20
Zhang Haixiang
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Hello,
I have read some of your post. It seems that there misunderstanding of the term "planning".

I think here in PP "planning" means time management.
So the planner is focus on time. the main job is to prepare schedule, tracking progress...
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Tue, 2007-04-10 08:13
#21
baiyi li
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Dear Gary:

Thank you for your comments.

However, Anumba et al (2000) stated that planning construction activities is increasingly becoming a complex task requiring substantial collaborative practices, with ad-hoc teams created to complete specific projects.

For example, the Site Waste Management Plans will be compulsory due 2007, in order to minimise construction waste.

Fischer et al (2003) and Anumba et al (1997) stated that the layout of the construction site and the organisation of spatial requirements are a critical factor to the success of completion of a construction project, and hence should be taken into account during the planning phase.

my questions are:1, who should do site waste management plans; 2, who should do site layout which is important for the site logistics. and in mine knowledge, the site layout or site place planning should be dynamic and updated within 1 or 2 days.
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Tue, 2007-04-10 07:16
#22
Gary Whitehead
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The designer has responsibility for determining layout, construction methodologies, specifications, etc.
The planner has responsibility for determining the timeframe for the above.
A good site planner may well know better than the designer what the most appropriate methodology is, but it is absolutely not within his remit to ignore the designer. He can request a design change via TQ but the designer is ultimately responsible, not the planner.
You can get into all kinds of CDM issues if you start instigating unapproved design changes. Don’t go there.
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Sat, 2007-04-07 09:30
#23
Anoon Iimos
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Chris,

Maybe I have to re-phrase it, Designers usually have the luxury of choice (depending on what comes in their minds), while Planners don’t.
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Thu, 2007-04-05 02:26
#24
Chris Oggham
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Hi Anoon,

I think you’re probably right, but a lot would depend on other factors, as Bijaya pointed out. I suppose at its most simplistic, the designer designs the product, while the planner plans the project that will make that product a reality.

Chris Oggham
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Wed, 2007-04-04 09:14
#25
Anoon Iimos
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for me, Designers usually don’t care about the time element, while for the Planner / Scheduler, it is the basic!
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Mon, 2007-04-02 12:00
#26
Bijaya Bajracharya
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A lot of variables can dictate on what one does:
Size of team
Expereince of team members
Nature of the work in the proejct
etc etc

Anyway, planner puts the detailed construction method in a format that can calculate Critical path and floats. Designer can help make work break down, activities involved etc.

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