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Showing Delay On a Programme

39 replies [Last post]
Mon, 2008-09-15 10:30
James Young
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Good Afternoon, I Have a Project which is in Delay, I want to show this on my Programme, It is a fully Linked Programme showing the Critical Path etc.

Every time i move an activity that hasent started reshedule it just goes back to the same position as before?

am i doing this correctly?

Regards,

James
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Replies

Sat, 2009-01-17 21:38
#1
J H
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Anoon,

I was referring to internal painting. Although it’s not usual I have seen external painting done from the way up on a highrise before. When they removed the last screens on the top floors the external painting was complete.
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Sat, 2009-01-17 05:47
#2
Mike Testro
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Hi Anoon

I recently worked on a massive LPG storage facility in Wales.

The interconnection of different facilities was crucial and the only way I could do it properly was to break the work down into its smallest sections and use FS links.

This was using P3 and it was a real pain to get it right so I do understand the reluctance of P3 users to do it properly.

Please go and have a look at Planning Abominations in Training.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Sat, 2009-01-17 05:35
#3
Anoon Iimos
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Mike,

I do agree with you with regards to FS link (ideal for a builder). You had mentioned that you are not a Planner but a Builder who can do the software? (i’m inclined to believe).

IMHO, task (activity) sequencing always depend on the availability of details, the more detail you got, the better and the more you can use FS (finish-to-start) link. I believe this will only happen when the Design (Engineering) is already done (again, ideal for a Builder). But how about an EPC program?

I also think that FF and SS relationships are only good for presentations (it doesn’t matter whether or not the audience understand what you are presenting for as long as you sound convincing and made them buy your Program - that, even using FF and SS).

JH,

I’ve never seen a building that painting works (i mean external painting) does not wait until completion of the structure or the top floor (claddings maybe).

cheers!
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Fri, 2009-01-16 18:26
#4
Mike Testro
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Hi J H

Go to Astadev.co.uk and download a 14 day free trial of Powerproject. It can do everything with knobs on.

If there is a change in the construction sequence I would prefer to pinpoint exactly where the change starts and where it ends

End On constraints do give a warning if the project is going into negative float but only if there is a true critical path. Best avoided.

Anything that interferes with the true critical path must be avoided.

Go and look at my new thread on Planning Abominations in Training.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Fri, 2009-01-16 18:13
#5
J H
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Mike,

Whilst for delay/EOT claims purposes the most accurate solution is FS links but, it may not be the best as you have to weigh up the cost/risk benefits for the project. Good or even bad planners don’t come cheap. If there are changes to the construction sequence you will have to spend time adjusting it and this could spiral out of hands. In many cases the planning is also done by the engineer or project manager who also has to manage a plethora of other things. Hence, this is where I think an alternative is justified. SS/FF relationships could still give you the correct answer but, you have to justify it if you get queried. The law is based on what is reasonable.

I have never heard of PowerProject so I am not aware of it’s capabilities and whether it could spit out all the graphs and information that is required.

I agree that you should minimise the use of constraints. I believe that they should only be used if it’s a contractual deliverable i.e. Separable Portion 1 Practical Completion. By doing so you would be able to see whether you are going to cause the project to be in delay.
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Fri, 2009-01-16 12:25
#6
Mike Testro
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Hi J H

As I said earlier - although it may not have been in this thread - overlapping tasks and lead lag links are a bad thing in a programme.

Each activity should represent 1 trade in 1 location.

If an activity is more than 10 days it is too long.

If you have to break it down to the nth degree then so be it.

There is no situation in construction programming where FF links are justified.

Keep it simple - FS links all the way and if you have to have 2500 activities on a three storey house - one I have just finished - then that is what it needs.

If it takes too long to do in P3 then ditch that software and get to work on PowerProject.

Every time I do a delay analysis I have to take all this sort rubbish out of the contract programme and re draw it.

And another thing - stop using constraint flags.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Fri, 2009-01-16 11:50
#7
J H
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Mike,

A SS or FF link suggests that you could overlap activities whereas a FS relationship will not. FF/SS relationships are often used to simplified programmes. Whilst, these may be simplified they could still show the correct float or the critical activities. The correct way is to develop a programme with only FS relationships but, it may not be the best because you may have to break the programme down to the nth degree. Not everyone has the luxury to do that. AM I going around in circles? :)

Anoon,

If the building is 60 storeys high then you can’t wait until the structure is 100% complete before you start painting. You will lose time by waiting to the end. Hence, you start from the bottom and move upwards.
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Fri, 2009-01-16 10:11
#8
Nestor Principe
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Dear All,

Am using SS and FF supported by narrative to describe the planned works sequence. It do help simplify the programme.

Cheers..
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Fri, 2009-01-16 08:34
#9
Carmen Arape
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Hi Charlie,

with regard your post #26.

Please accept my apologies, no disrespect intended. It is my false assumption about you as latino and able to cope with my latino sense of humour.

I do respect you and your ideas hidden in your posts. I have positively critised them as brilliant, less brilliant and insolent.

Cheers,

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Fri, 2009-01-16 08:25
#10
Mike Testro
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Hi Anoon

I agree that top down finishing is more practical but not always the quickest.

Whichever way you go all you need is a FS link from trade to trade - from floor 4 > 3 or 3 > 4 whatever.

I do not see what a FF link adds to the creation of a critical path.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Fri, 2009-01-16 07:07
#11
Anoon Iimos
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with reference to painting example: I supposed it’s better if you start painting from the top floor going down to ground floor (economical as well), so that you can create a FF link, which is linked to the finishing of ground floor...or am I tired of changing diapers???...
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Thu, 2009-01-15 12:44
#12
Mike Testro
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Hi H J

For fluu read full

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Thu, 2009-01-15 12:43
#13
Mike Testro
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Hi J H

You can set up whatever links you like - I was just giving an example of how a fluu resource link can be set up quickly.

I started using planning software in the lat 80’s so I can only claim 20 years on planning software - before that it was graph paper and a pencil.

In all that time I have never yet been asked to generate an s curve and although I have suretrak software on my system I only use it to convert to PowerProject.

Sad old git aint I.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Thu, 2009-01-15 12:04
#14
J H
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Mike,

So, are we confined to just physical linkage when we talk about float and critical paths? I think resource flow also has to be considered as no subcontractor will have unlimited resource or space. Do you not think there is any opportunity of overlap painting on different floor levels? Let me give you an example: suppose level 4 takes 4 days to paint the 1st coat by person A and 4 days to paint the 2nd coat by person B and you need the 1st coat to be sufficiently dry (say 1 day) before your could paint the 2nd coat. The total during for the activity painting would be 5 days. Once person A finishes he could go up to level 5 and commence painting, hence, level 4 and level 5 painting have 1 day overlap. The cycle continues with other floors. Instead of breaking down the activity into 1st and 2nd coat you could lag the level 5 painting by 4 days off the level 4 painting. I am using the above as an example to show that you do not have a FS relationship for the activity PAINTING. If you broke it down to 1st coat and 2nd coat it would be different. Painting was just something I plucked arbitrarily. Programmes can get really complex if you drill down too much and it could get really difficult to manage. Hope this explains.

Mike, since you have 30 odd years of programming experience could you help me answer my s-curves in suretrak query that I recently posted? Thanks.
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Thu, 2009-01-15 06:33
#15
Charleston-Joseph...
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Carmen,

you mention "what about the mess with a lot of words in capital letters"

If only you see that posting in PP is also a learning experience, practical learning experience. I did raise the issue regarding capital letters and shouting because my teacher in english did not tell me that writing capital letter in blog or forum is tantamount to shouting.

The last time I attended english class was 25 long years ago and in our country our english teacher at that time don’t know the ethics in internet forum or blogs. I also don’t think that internet was the fads in our country 25 long years ago.

I did appreciate the effort of Mr. Mike to explain to me the protocol in internet forums.

And this makes me a better person.

It is also in the same way that some issues we are innocent and the only way to raise up from our present situation is to post a lot, 50 post per month, if possible.

And in doing so, it will develop in us a thicker skin.

I hope you will stop being angry with me. I always have too much respect on you opinion.

Regards,
Happy Planning and Scheduling
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Thu, 2009-01-15 06:12
#16
Mike Testro
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Hi JH

What you are talking about is resource linkage rather than physical linkage.

You cant paint a wall until it is plastered and you can’t paint the wall on level 5 if the painters are still on level 4.

Using PowerProject software it is very quick and simple to set all these FS links into place.

Having set up a typical finishing cascade for each task on each floor - with differing durations - it is easy to copy paste for the number of floors.

Dont forget to link the first task to whatever upstream task is restraining it.

Then filter on each trade so you have a view of that trade only - use the FS global link button and it is linked for all floors in seconds.

Repeat for each trade where you need resource linkages.

To take up slack set the tasks to finish ALAP.

20 minutes Job Done.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Thu, 2009-01-15 05:56
#17
J H
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FF relationships could be used to show the correct float in some instances without having to breakdown the activities to the nth degree. In my view it has the same effect as a SS relationship. For instance in a high rise construction where you have multiple repetitive activities you could link the last activity on the 2nd floor to the last activity on the 3rd floor. Lets assume this last activity is painting and requires 5 days per floor. A FS+0d relationship may not be right because there may be opportunities to overlap. A FF+4d relationship maybe be used to show the correct resource flow and, hence, the correct float. On a side note, FS relationships are probably the least ambiguous but, it will require a lot more time to build and manage. In high rises it will mean that you have to link each activity on that floor as well as to the floors above and below dependent on the trade.
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Tue, 2009-01-13 10:05
#18
Cherie S Blare
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Whose lying ?
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Tue, 2009-01-13 08:58
#19
Carmen Arape
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Hi Happy Planner or Happy Lier,

Are you sure about following the chinese saying:

"Less words, less mistakes..."

what about the mess with a lot of words in capital letters.

Cheers,
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Tue, 2009-01-13 05:20
#20
Charleston-Joseph...
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to be transparent and simple,

I usually follows the chinese saying:

"Less words, less mistakes, too much words, too much mistakes"

Thats why it is better to "shoot it straight" ala Dirty Harry as the best approach.

But this is not the reality. For presentation of claim, voluminous ring binder documents with another voluminous attachment is use to confuse the judge.

Cheers,
Happy Planning and Scheduling
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Tue, 2009-01-13 04:58
#21
Cherie S Blare
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Hi Charleston

From past experience, another method is to use powerpoint and s-curves to demonstrate your claim to a judge. He will understand and be sympathetic with this format.

Regards

Cherie.
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Tue, 2009-01-13 04:50
#22
Mike Testro
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Hi Charleston.

In his book "About Time" Mr Linnett refers to delay analysis as a "Dark Art" in the sense that as in witch craft its a sort of con trick.

By the use of arcane terms and confident approach your adjudicator is convinced that some sort of magic is being produced that only those few who are initiates can perform.

To some extent this is true - very few adjudicators understand the processes involved in delay analysis so the real art is making the submission fully transparent and so simple that even a Judge can understand it.

Best regards.

Mike Testro

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Mon, 2009-01-12 20:23
#23
Charleston-Joseph...
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Mike,

When you say "Regarding Delay Analysis - some call the process a Dark Art."

It connote in my imaginations some sort of witchcraft???

say like Harry Potter

but I don’t belong to the Harry Potter generation

I only belong to the "Dirty Harry" generation

So, I prefer shooting???

Regards,
Happy planning and scheduling
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Wed, 2009-01-07 11:26
#24
Mike Testro
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Hi Charleston

I eliminate open ended activities by putting in a FS link to something else - even if it is contract completion.

Regarding Delay Analysis - some call the process a Dark Art.

I agree with you regarding presentation - the pictures have to be so clear that even a Judge can understand it.

Most people who sit in Judgement of our work do not understand delay analysis at all.

Quite recently I had an eminent Barrister and Arbitrator tell me to "F*** Off and take my bar charts with me" I wouldn’t have minded too much but he was OUR brief.

Best regards

Mike T.
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Wed, 2009-01-07 11:18
#25
Charleston-Joseph...
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One useful way of using FF is to eliminate open ended activities,

It is also use in hammock activities.

The general idea is that a program or plan or baseline plan is not an exact science. A lot of human factors are involved (some nationality are emotional while some are cold as ice) and these human factos influence the preparation of program, approval of program and updating of program.

In conclusion, showing delay on a prorgram is an art. The better the artist you are, the big chance your presentation of delays will be acceptable or can sway opinions to your favour.

There is no truth in delays analysis since it is not an exact science, so it will end up with relatives (maybe same as theory of relativity).

Since it is relatives, it is preferable to come up with amicable settlement.

Cheers,
Happy Planning and Scheduling
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Wed, 2009-01-07 05:31
#26
Mike Testro
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Hi Arjun

Your request is not that simple.

Delay analysis is a very complex matter and different circumstances require different approaches.

There are books and websites which will give you general advice and direction but it is essential that you know which way to go in real life.

Sorry but that is as far as I can go in a simple thread.

If you have a specific problem then I may be able to be more precise.

Best regards

Mike T.
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Tue, 2009-01-06 14:28
#27
Arjun Thomas
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Dear Samer,

An opinion can be expressed by a few or many.Even one maybe right and all others wrong. With due respect to all, planning logic is the very essence of a programme.Using only FS is not logical. An expert I know rejects programmes because they do not contain FF and SS relationships. FF and SS links must be used for greater precision including those that are predecessors.
If you gentlemen can find and let me know examples and how delay can be shown in a programme, I would be most thankful.
If not please treat the matter closed.

Cheers,
Arjun.
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Mon, 2009-01-05 20:58
#28
Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Arjun,

The obvious answers of experts is that they are working without using this relationship. The next question is, why do you want to use FF, if you can build your program without it.

Best,

Samer
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Mon, 2009-01-05 13:21
#29
Arjun Thomas
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Coming back to my question guys, where are FF relationships applicable? Please give examples. How could delays be shown on a programme with such links? I think Mike came near to the question. But schedules are meant to be kept and any dragging of activities or delay/slippage is not acceptable either to the Client, Contractor or Consultant!

Best Regards,
Arjun
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Sun, 2009-01-04 15:55
#30
Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Mike,

Thank you for you time and explanation. It is appreciated.
It is always better to keep things clear and simple.

Best Regards,

Samer
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Sat, 2009-01-03 17:35
#31
Mike Testro
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Hi Samer

Delivery of materials to site must end before the materials are installed.

If you are setting up a procurement and delivery schedule - which is essential - then you need to set up trade hammocks and then programme the procurement and delivery packages to end as late as possible before the trade activity starts.

It is essentially a Finish start link in whatever level of detail you need to set up.

I have just finished a design > procurement > delivery matrix with 44 trade packages on 2500 activities.

All with Finish Start links.

The same happens if you are setting up a massive material stockplie.

You then need to set up a draw down schedule so that each set of materials is called out as and when needed.

I did one of these years ago when a batching plant was delivering concrete to a 12KM dual carriageway. The programme had to balance the stockpile size against usage v delivery. Every time Finish Start although the actual daily calculation was done on Lotus 123. Powerproject was not so sophisticated in the early 80s.

Best regards

Mike T.
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Sat, 2009-01-03 16:23
#32
Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Mike,

How would you model the following:

"Finish delivery of the material to site" with the "Finish of Construction". Unless all the material is at site, the Contruction can not finish.

Thank you in advance.

Samer
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Thu, 2009-01-01 08:45
#33
Dieter Wambach
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Mike

The only reason for FF-relationships I can imagine is to connect activities of type Level of Effort/Hammock to assign e.g. overhead resources - PM, Controlling, Secretary, ... Since this type has no duration of its own, it can’t be valid for a delay analysis. I can’t remember that I ever used FF-relation for normal activities.

Regards and a happy New Year

Dieter
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Thu, 2009-01-01 08:01
#34
Mike Testro
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Hi Arjun

I have not yet found a practical use for finish - finish links.

What happens is that where one activity finishes late the F-F link drags the start date of the linked activity out of place - creating artifical float on upstream activities.

If anyone can show me a real life situation where one activity cannot finish until another has also finished I will be grateful.

In delay analysis I stick to finish - start links and take out all lead lags and constraints to create a responsive critical path.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Thu, 2009-01-01 05:54
#35
Arjun Thomas
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Can you please tell me the use of Finish to Finish predecessor links between activities in a base line programme and its logic with reference to examples and indicate how does this impact delays. How to show such delays on a programme?
Please inform email address kttarjun@yahoo.co.uk
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Sat, 2008-09-20 16:43
#36
Charleston-Joseph...
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BTW,

What software are you using,

My opinion is base on Primavera planning software.

Maybe other software might have been programme to act the way you are experiencing.

Please let us know.
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Sat, 2008-09-20 16:41
#37
Charleston-Joseph...
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and of course,

James,

you are not doing it correctly.
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Sat, 2008-09-20 16:40
#38
Charleston-Joseph...
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James,

The only reason for an activity not moving considering that predecessors activities were already delayed is that mandatory start date was invoked for that particular activity.

This is really a big problem in CPM logic, constraints, worse mandatory constraints date.

So the only solution is to remove all constraints since contraints distort the logic.

Kind reagrds,
Charlie
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Wed, 2008-09-17 09:23
#39
Mike Testro
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Hi James

You seem to be involved in a remarkable number of different construction projects for all these different threads that you start.

I have a suspicion that you are asking advice on some sort of tutorial or training package.

Anyway - if you move an activity that is linked up to others you have to put an artificial restraint on it to keep it in position.

Otherwise draw an activity that represents the delay and link it up to the affected task - this will give a better visual impact especialyy if the delay bar is bright red.

Best regards

Mike Testro

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