Dear All

Same comments

Just a title

Experience and qualification count more than the title itself and that reflect on the earning.

However, I have to admit that there are cowboy planners out there who know nothing about planning except using the software call themself a planner, this is because the industry simply do not train enough planner to support the needs. That created these cowboy planner. In times only the good one will survie, not the bull xxx artist.

^^ Happy 2007

Alex

Hello to All,

To all PP: my warmest greeting of Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

The year 2005 and 2006 was a great year.

The year to come hopefully will be the best ever.

It offers opportunity to broaden understanding of the planning planet world.

My philsophy now is to get the best of the planning planet: the positive and the negative.

You guys and gals are great. Only in this plannet can we learn a lot

So for this post I agree to all.

Cheers,

Charlie

Hi,

I am no planner nor engineer but read tgis thread & hope I can clarify someof the differences in culture & thinking.

I once work with a Japanese Contractor. In Japan, their education system are different from UK or Commonwealth countries.
They spent years studying as an undergraduate, maybe "construction" not necessary specialising in any field. Then spent years to gualify as a grade 1 architect in "On the Job Training", who will also be an technical/structural ready.

During this time, they start from the bottom, sat furthest away from the "window", in fact if you are lucky, you get a desk because you should be out on site/field doing all the "supervisory" duties.
To be a good supervisor, you required to understand the INSTRUCTION, scope of work, the method of construction, planning for the work, purchasing of resources, design & drafting (CAD/Shop drawing), coordinating the resources, schedule/time control, labour & plant control, Quality control, post mortem analysis & COMMUNICATION (Whether through speech, written reports or drawings)

They move slowing towards the "window" & Handon experinces are the best training you can get.

With years of "on the job training" they are not just educated but wise in the "ground work" so by the time they reach near to the "window", they are like "ginger - the older the hottest"

What I am trying to say here is, not necessary having BSC, MBA, Dr or BCS.
Western concept thinks letters behind name is important but it is the actual experience that is most important in any industry. That is why when you go for interview with a Japanese Company, they actually test you whetehr verbally or on paper.

In construction/civil, the title ENGINEER is for those who passed part 3 in the Institute of Civil Engineer, that means they are Chartered Enginner. Those who use the title as engineer are all misunderstood because they are only TRAINING enginner/Technician.

In my opinion, Expert can only reserve for those who have years of on the job experience and the appropriate academic background because otherwise they bound to be missing something somewhere so how can they call themselves expert?
Time is the only factor we can’t control and it is limited

So Fannie, I understand what you would like a a fast track up but ultimately, whether you are confident to do the job or not & do it properly is to get your hand dirty and understand the process, especially if you want to be a planner!!!

Hope this help

Hi Mimoune

My question to you is "Do you still do the same question you did when you are study these days, or you apply the problem solving skill you learn in school to solve your daily routine?"

My point is study as an engineer give you the ability to think logically, problem solving, find references etc...
However, the textbook cannot give you the exact answer you face each day as an engineer. So if a person who have those skill to solve problem, providing an engineering solution should we call them engineer??

I was offer an title as an Professional Engineer by the IEEE, but I only consider myself as a planner. Does it mater if I have the Engineer Title in the back, to me $ is better than a title.

Cheers

Alex

Fannie

My advice to you is,
1 Forget about the title,
2 Concentrate on your skill set,
3 Find a good teacher (collegue) and learning all their skill and tricks. (^&^)
4 If you learn all in one company move to another company and repeat 2&3 until you find no more can be gain.
5 Get a PMP or MPM or MBA
6 Then you found that your title is no longer have "engineer" attached anymore, who care

All the best

Alex

If I did not make it clear, my experience range is from shovel – site supervisor – planner. I have come from a site background not schooling.
I believe that knowing all aspects of site work is key to understanding logic / process / activities/ duration and any mistakes in any plan.
I also believe the most important thing to know in planning is to be able to plan without a computer. This is how I was taught and how I guide others.
I am no expert in planning by any means but I enjoy what I do and am getting better as the years pass.

Hi guys,

My 2p……
My working experience is with-in railway sector for 10years.
Engineer, would I call myself one with out any college or university degree or any engineering qualification YES.
My life started working in a Gang on the railway doing relaying, assisting the engineer setting up lasers, taking levels etc, also doing the bloody work myself.
I progressed through the skills until I reached the top ticket. Then I went into possession planning, this was not planning as we are talking about here, but it gave me the opportunity to gain valuable experience in planning from other planners.

Anthony Robins an author speaks about Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).
To make this simple if you read a cook book and follow the instruction step by step you can bake the same cake. You don’t need to be a qualified cook !
In life I have learnt that watching and talking to people and taking the information in will get you results in what ever you are trying to achieve, quicker than doing a course, you also get to look and use the skills in a REAL environment, not in a class room.
Every company has different procedures and carry these out in different ways, I have trained up planner’s which come into my company who have done a degree and they have not got a clue. They do not know the task’s/activities/resources anything, they have not even worked apart from in “Top Shop”, but they are a planning engineer !!

In university they do not give you on site experience, I have seen many lost engineer’s walking around not know what they are doing no common site sense or anything, all they have is a piece of paper to there name and they think they can take on the world and they are always RIGHT as there teacher said so !
Planning, I have written method statements, risk assessments, I have implemented safe systems of work on the railways and construction sites, and I have been at the front line for 7 years of my working life. I know what the timescales are for an activity, I know how many men will need to do a task, and I know what skills these men will need. I did not get a degree for this, I know it off by heart.
Now day’s employers want this piece of paper, it is not necessary that anyone in planning has to have done years of wading through books to be able to call them self’s a planning engineer. As long as the individual can display knowledge of a subject to a certain level, equal with a university person this should be sufficient.

Now planners are getting thin on the ground there are many software jockeys around, But that does not mean that one day with the right guidance they can also be of a level in which to be called a PLANNING ENGINEER !!!

Aye! You are ranting. Its all those nuts you eat.
I am not for one minute saying because you have a parchment stating you have graduated in an Engineering course that you are a competant Engineer - far, far from it!

And, full circle, we are back to the argument Planning Engineer versus Planner.

It is my understanding that you should not refer to yourself as an Engineer unless you have a degree in Engineering.

Gwen Blair
Social & Domestic Engineer

Interesting topic: Both terms use the word "engineer". I’ve had many a discussion with my PM about this - and he seems to have entrenched ideas as to who is allowed to use the word "engineer". When our printer broke-down, and someone attached a note saying that the "Engineer has been called", he then scribbled-out the word ’Engineer’and replaced it with the word "Technician".

IMO, a person can call themselves an engineer if they understand the basic principles behind the result that is generated from their work. Therefore, a Planning Engineer will derive the sequence of activities based on his knowledge of the physical elements of those activities. He/she won’t necessarily be able to input it into an electronic programme, however. The Programming Engineer, though, will understand how to get the data in, manipulate it, generate reports etc. but may not necessarily understand the logic behind the sequence or be able to question its validity. Each person may be an "engineer" in their own right, but neither could really exist without the other. This is why the two terms are often inter-changable. And so the debate continues.....

James.

Programme engineer is somebody who inputs the data
Planner is somebody who creates thye data for input
There are many threads here on what makes a good planning engineer
If you require further advice feel free to e mail me
Clive